Morocco # English board

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Morocco # English board

منتدى المغرب و المغاربة حول العالم

Morocco's state airline Royal Air Maroc has banned its staff praying at their offices and headquarters.

The company says that in the past its workers have abused the privilege of praying, by taking too much time away from their desks and their customers.

But the airline's workers as well as Islamist politicians say it is part of a crackdown on their religious freedom.

Praying is one of the five pillars of Islam and regarded as a crucial part of a Muslim's way of life.

The state airline, partly owned by the Moroccan royal family, is a great source of pride and prestige in the country.

Royal Air Morocco obviously has absolutely no respect for Islam

Moustapha Aramid
But this latest move threatens to exacerbate divisions in Morocco.

Workers say that they have been banned from praying at work and that a number of prayer rooms have been closed and that they are forbidden from going to the mosque during work hours.

The company would not give an interview but issued a statement saying that while there is no official ban on praying, they had to do something to stop people taking lengthy breaks away from work.

But critics say the issue of praying, like the veil, is part of a more sinister move to rob the country of its Islamic roots.

Political

"I feel very angry about this decision," says Moustapha Aramid from the Islamic Party for Justice and Development.

"Moroccans have had their liberty and their religious freedom taken away from them. It is very damaging. Royal Air Morocco obviously has absolutely no respect for Islam."

Analysts say the ban on prayers is really a political move aimed at stamping out radical Islamism.

When an alleged terrorist cell - Ansar el-Mehdi - was broken up earlier this year - two of the suspects charged were the wives of two Royal Air Morocco pilots.

There is a feeling that the company had to do something to respond.

Other complaints from airline staff are that pilots and stewards were not allowed to fast during the month of Ramadan and that female staff are not allowed to wear the veil - although that has been an unwritten rule at many companies for several years.

These issues are becoming a focal point for some very hard questions being asked of this moderate Arabic country - something that is causing serious friction between liberals and traditionalists.

Always two sides to a story :

1. Royal Air Maroc is maybe taking the efficiency and productivity concept a little too far, let them have their time to pray as long as they're not jeopardizing security if they're in a sensitive position in the company structure.


2. Nothing prevents the employees from praying during their legal break, I assume their unions have thought of that when negotiating and drafting the internal rules and regulations agreement. If not, it can be done quietly between the union leaders and the heads of RAM.

Last thing, Mustapha Ramid is huge hypocrit, we're close to an election, but I'm sure that does not factor in his thinking process

If they follow this same strategy, then many people in the public service and institutions will lose their jobs... How many times has one gone to some public institution, for some reason (for instance the : baladiya) and was sent back home, to return later because the person in charge was gone for hours praying!

salam alaykum

First of all the prayer did not take more than 5 mnt and if they would like to pray jamma it will take 10 mnt therefore with little organization they can make 2 phases for salat Jamae(if it is done inside the company . .whoever missed the 1 st one they can catch up the second one . However the employees can not take advantage from prayer time for chitchat that is abuse.
2sd the payer time should be taken from their lunch time or even break time if they are paid for 7and 30 employees should know that the payer time is not included.

Quote
sarah70
salam alaykum

First of all the prayer did not take more than 5 mnt and if they would like to pray jamma it will take 10 mnt therefore with little organization they can make 2 phases for salat Jamae(if it is done inside the company . .whoever missed the 1 st one they can catch up the second one . However the employees can not take advantage from prayer time for chitchat that is abuse.
2sd the payer time should be taken from their lunch time or even break time if they are paid for 7and 30 employees should know that the payer time is not included.

i can see where you're coming from, sarah70, but unfortunately this is not the way things work in morocco. it kind of goes more on these lines: employees take break even before the official prayer time, those who have to go to a mosque to pray using it as an excuse to "get there early, before the mosque is full up"....even though it rarely is. then, once they're finished praying, which, as you rightly points out, takes up to 10 minutes, what do you reckon they do? no, they don't dutifully go back to work: they go on lunch break, or coffee break, or whatever-break... in fact, whatever keeps them away from work for a bit longer.... while paying paid! and this happens in all kinds of places: government offices, shops, hairdessing salons. it is not rare to have to come back the following day because the person in charge has gone for prayer and don't normally return before 2-3 hours.... of course, i know that there are at least as many people who do not abuse this right, but still.... so even though i think that la ram's move is a bit drastic, i do feel some sympathy for them, and for all those who took a similar approach: the nature of business is such that you have to put business first. and when abuse goes on and on, then even patience wears thin.

Asking people to change there believes is just not right and it show the incompetent of the leaders (especially the minister), in stead of finding a solution to the problem; they blame it on religion and attack it. I would not spend any of my money in this airline, and I will make sure to have as many people as I could to boycott this airline.
to me they are forbidden the forbidden to solve the problem , the are trying to cover there incompetents.
And what happened to freedom that we all seeking? Or women can’t choose to have or not have scarf.

Ok let me recap, employees have been asled to not pray during business hours in their office but during their break in an appropriate religious place and we have a scandal because of that? What's next? Pilots asking to pray in the cockpit?

I guess all reasons are good to work less, all bunch of slackers

You’re absolutely right Zaki7,
Now RAM is a bad airline because it wants to get rid of slackers. I worked with people who took 3 times half hour to “pray”, there’s no way a company can stay in business with people like these. “You want to pray? You do it on your time! Period.”
Peace,

Royal Air Maroc banning prayer times in their offices? they have well done because our gentle prayers actually take much more time than needed. I live in a Gulf state and i always have to wait 30 minutes for prayers to finish. Yes, some people do take time off!!

Quote

baba123
Asking people to change there believes is just not right and it show the incompetent of the leaders (especially the minister), in stead of finding a solution to the problem; they blame it on religion and attack it. I would not spend any of my money in this airline, and I will make sure to have as many people as I could to boycott this airline.
to me they are forbidden the forbidden to solve the problem , the are trying to cover there incompetents.
And what happened to freedom that we all seeking? Or women can’t choose to have or not have scarf.

You seem to have misunderstood the point here. Nobody is asking anyone to change their beliefs, read it again. It's a matter of business efficiency, using unreasonably prayer times is exactly the kind of thing that gives our religion a bad name : "islam is bad for business" is the message the employees abusing the system, are sending. You should direct your anger towards them if you think about it.

On the scarf issue : it's not a scarf, they're talking about hijabs, you know as well as I do what it implies in our country. Especially after the arrests made last july.
Now, would you prefer to have the safety of your family or friends jeopardized ?
Freedom of religion practice has nothing to do with anything here, it's about productivity and safety.

Productivity : how many times didn't you go to any administration in our country and were told "sir 7tal gheda, mcha y sallé !

Safety : Read the reports on Ansar Al Mahdi, the network dismantled last summer, one branch was operating within the RAM. Wouldn't you be better off knowing that when you board a RAM plane, knowing everything has been done to ensure you'll arrive safely ?

Now go tell your friends that, instead....


But again, all of this should have been done quietly through the unions, instead of airing it and scaring some or infuriating others.

salam alaykum


Wasting the company time, milking the system can happened thru many twisted ways ,if those RAM employees were abusing the prayer time is not the fault of the prayer the problem can not go beyond of those people misbehave no need to make a big issue out of it.

In the other hand the company decision is unfair and too far , as if the managerial board was waiting for that, to ban people from praying during the business hours or women from wearing hijab .

1) I didn’t talk about the prayer issue at all, so please don’t jump on people just for the seek of jumping on them,
2) For the scarf /hijab or what ever you want to name it.
What kind of logic is this? Hijab to you means terrorist and safety threat?
What a lousy analysis,
2 things!, either you don’t follow the world news event, on how some of the governments are starting to crack down on any display of religious symbol (Tunisia) , And encouraging the whoring and soft core via TV programs.
Or you are against the hijab to begin with and you are defending the act with saying it,

baba123,

I didn't jump on you, we're just talking here.
You said "change their beliefs", to what I replied that nobody was trying to change anyone's belief as far as I know. It was just a productivity issue.
For the hijab, again the cloth in itself is not the issue, but the RAM security department probably got nervous after the plot discovered last summer targeting them.
Dealing in security matters these days usually involves islamists, two women were found implicated in that plot. Can you blame them ?
If you have a problem with that, you can blame the "would be" terrorists not the one trying to ensure our safety.
Just commonsense.

Same logic with the crackdown in Tunisia and around the world, blame those at the source of the problem not the ones trying to stop them.
I don't want another May 16th in our country. It just so happens that the perpetrators are usually islamists and they usually use, as an excuse to justify their crimes, Islam.
The hijab is associated with a certain ideology, it may unfair to those wearing it as an act of faith, but again, blame the islamists not the ones cracking down on them.
I fail to see the logic in blaming the cop and cheering the criminal.

an article I read on the web.
Almot

Morocco defends airline over Islamist bans
By Lamine Ghanmi

Rabat - A senior government official denied on Thursday Islamist charges that Morocco's flagship airline had trampled on employees' rights by banning them from praying at work and forcing pilots to eat during Ramadan.

The main legal opposition Islamist Justice and Development Party (PJD) this week stepped up its criticism of the moves by state-owned Royal Air Maroc (RAM), calling them an abuse of religious freedom.

"More than 50 Islamic states have airlines but we have not heard of such bans other than here," Mustapha Ramid, a leading figure in PJD, the third largest party in parliament, said in an interview.

Government officials accused PJD of stirring up the 4-month-old issue to try to influence parliamentary polls next year.

"Since July, Air Maroc has banned its workers from praying in their offices to enforce work discipline, but the airline workers are allowed to pray at two mosques nearby," said Bourara Khadija, top adviser to Transport Minister Karim Ghellab.

"It is a shame that the decision was branded as a crackdown on religious freedom," she told Reuters. "It is wrong to claim that RAM abuses the religious rights of its workers."

Khadija said RAM had to enforce discipline at work as it faced stiff competition from foreign airlines after Morocco signed an open sky agreement with the European Union.

Another senior government official, who declined to be named since he was not authorised to talk to the media, said the PJD was "stirring up the debate in parliament and in the press to try to embarrass the government ahead of 2007's elections."

Islamist parties are growing in popularity in Morocco, with the PJD poised do well in the elections, unsettling business and urban elites who fear Islamist politicians want to reduce women's liberties and other social freedoms in the north African kingdom. The Islamists deny the charge.

Khadija said RAM had banned its pilots from fasting while flying during the holy month of Ramadan because plane simulation tests showed possible security risks.

"Aviation authorities proved that a fasting pilot can not fully control a plane's gears and equipment after spending some hours flying," she said.

PJD deputy Noureddine Gherbal told reporters some female RAM employees had also complained to him in writing about being barred from wearing Islamic headscarves.

But Khadija said RAM had acted fairly.

"There is no veil issue here at all. Only two female workers were asked to move from a front desk to a RAM call centre if they wanted to wear veils and they obeyed the order," Khadija said.



Published on the Web by IOL on 2006-11-10 09:13:52

Thanks for the article Almot.

So this is just the PJD stirring things up after all. They should be working on how they are going to produce the "zero unemployment economy" they promised instead of using starting fires from issues easily solvable through dialogue.

That's what worries me about them, they have next to nothing to offer, so the only thing left, is to cloak themselves into moralists.

"There is no veil issue here at all. Only two female workers were asked to move from a front desk to a RAM call centre if they wanted to wear veils and they obeyed the order," Khadija said."

was it a veil or hijab?

I can see the problem with veil but what is the problem with hijab that the employee has to disappear from the front desk?

So they can bring some one with short skirt and colored face to smile in seducing way to the bunch of perverts excecutives??



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2006 07:58 by baba123.

Quote

baba123
So they can bring some one with short skirt and colored face to smile in seducing way to the bunch of perverts excecutives??

I'm sorry my friend but you seem to have a low esteem of women. So if she's wearing a short skirt, that makes her less of a woman to you and if she's wearing a veil she gets some sort of immunity ?

What is important to me is what's inside her head not what's on it.

low a esteem ? not even in the correct place, anywway

I’m not talking about the veil at all, “hijaaaaaab, it is a big difference.
I'm very sorry I can’t continue the dialog with you; you are just not willing to see the big picture here.
You don’t want to blame a government that is oppression the hall population and taking there right a way because of a few people bad actions?
Let me go with your analogies, if a men with earring killed some one lets forbid all males with earrings, is this your logic?
Also read very carefully I didn’t say ALL, I said SOME, (again big difference
We fought for the freedom for a long time, and we are not going to let a bunch of ignorant to take it away that easy,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2006 08:22 by baba123.

This is all about next elections, I guess PJD will be exploiting not only the "RAM Scandal of the century" (makes me want to laugh) but any other issue that will basically turn the government into the "devil" and them into the "mahdi mountadar".

Why is it that a party to be elected is discussing religious matters at La RAM anyway while the real needs of the country are known to everybody? Where is this 5-year plan for the economy and the social need of the people? Or is it so much easier to play to the base by discussing matters that will never affect the real life of Moroccans?

And about la RAM, they better do a huge overhaul of their management and productivity otherwise they'll be lagging behind the new low cost companies and trust me, those workers who are complaining right now will be regretting that they polarized on something that is remote to what this company should be focused on right now..

This is not a religious matter my friend this a freedom of choice, (be able to wear hijab or not) it should be up to the individual and not to the companies or governments.
L ARAM want to make it look like a religious matter.
Why will it matter to any one if a worker have hijab or not as long the service is as expected.
Are people there to get where they want to go or stair at the faces?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2006 02:22 by baba123.

once again, the hijab was NOT the major problem in this case, the slackers who took many half hours every day to pray were, and they should not do that on the company's time. it seems fair to me.

reedom of choice is good and is to be practiced in public areas, the company also has a freedom of choice to hire or not hire, to put regulations it sees will benefit its business. When an employee works in a company, he is to follow these regulations. This one for me seems pretty obvious : the company should not pay for the time an employee spend to pray. If he wants to pray, it's on his break time, period. That's the rule even in the most advanced democracies like the US.

I don't think Hijab is the issue in the article.

that's right, and on top of that, let's not forget that rights go with duties: if one is to claim his rights, he should start by demonstrating that he's also doing his duties. otherwise, it's abusing by taking advantage of the system, which is unfair on everyone.

Driss Benhima s'exprime sur la pratique religieuse et la RAM

[www.yabiladi.com]

Islamist hackers attack RAM website
Morocco's air carrier Royal Air Maroc (RAM), is under attack by Islamic hackers who are targeting the carrier's website after it reportedly prohibited workers from praying within the company's premises during working hours and banned the veil for its female employees. Internet messages posted on Islamic fundamentalist websites called for an attack on the website of the airline. The messages follows a similar threat by extremist Islamic websites last week to hack into the website of the Vatican.

The message calling on all Islamist hackers to carry out a 'virtual jihad' said that "the unfaithful Moroccan airline has violated some precepts dictated by our Prophet banning the veil and prayers in the office."

It is uncertain how effective the attack has been, but when The View from Fez tried to access the RAM website, it was not functioning. However the company may have closed its servers in order to limit damage.

The hackers obviously don't keep up with the news because only last week, Moroccan transport minister Karim Ghellab denied media reports that the government has banned prayer time for employees with national air carrier but acknowledged that workers were asked not to pray in their offices. Ghellab however said they were allowed to go to the nearest mosque.

So far the only recent attack claimed by Islamic hackers carried out successfully occurred on 22 October, when a group calling itself 'Guard of Turkey and Islam' attacked from France the website of the Italian journalists' association and paralysed it.

The association says the hackers posted a message denouncing France's role in the "genocide of the Algerian population" and calling for a cyber war.
THE VIEW FROM FEZ