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منتدى المغرب و المغاربة حول العالم

Alll Bullshit, wheather this Woman Chelhman's talking about is not gay or the world is upside down !! looks like the one in New york i think last year who lead a bunch of stupid "Moslem" in a prayer at ... a church !! she's a Baha'ist, and those people are not Moslems, they go astray from the right path by the witness of all Moslem scholars ! we've heard about some Imams who prayed while drunk but this one a moslem gay scholar ... i just don't believe it even after a thousand centuries ! it's a lie or some kinda set up or simply last month's joke ! anyways, i've heard so many crap all my life but this one is the best ! how can a moslme listen to this chick if she's really gay ? i don't think there's anybody in his full mental health would do ! at least not me, some pro-gays maybe, Allah created both Paradise and Hell and sure Hell will host the lion's share !

LeMask,

It's logic (actually it's logical) ? You mean, it doesn't compute in YOUR logic. Besides, islam was designed to be an evolutive religion, it stopped being predominant when conservatives took over and froze everything in the middle ages. Have you taken the time to read "Project Ijtihad" ?
But we've had these conversations on several occasions, just re-read our previous exchanges, you know where I stand.

Shelby,

The information is correct, Irshad is gay, read the "about Irshad" section. Whether you accept it or not, whether you can understand what she's doing or not, is up to you. If the information doesn't get through your intellectual grid, then the problem lies within you. Nothing she or I will say, will make a difference if you're hardwired to think in a certain way.
One last thing : decreeing, as you have done above that some people are not muslims, has a name, it is called takfirism.

i know all i want about Ijtihad... but Ijtihad doesnt mean to adapt to the BS the modern society is serving us...

once again, even Osama Ben Laden can claim Ijtihad and say "what? doing a war without killing women and children is so pre 9/11..." or "i believe in equality, so i dont mind killing women... and children will be men tommorow..." wow... when i read you, i dont know if Ben Laden is 5000years behind or 10000years forward...

come on man! be logic... homosexuals arent a sub-race of mankind... they are a product of society. and this society isnt Muslim.
we rise our boys with the idea that they will find a woman a day, and make kids...
and same for our women...

they just had problems in their education.. dont make up excuses. you arent helping them...

and Shelby, plz, dont push Chelhman too far... or he will bring his "dogma" super argument... it's too powerful... it's the A-bomb...

you can tell him that the Sun is hot and he will tell you "ah, dogma again..." and you will feel stupid... watch out!

Mr Shelhman ! let's give she's gay, ok? well, she's a scholar she gives preaches, well, i'll ask you this one : do you trust her sayings? can you rationalize what a GAY says when she talks about islam and stuff, while she's herself not hiding she's gay? i mean this woman is committing one big sin, how can she be trusted? don't tell me homosexuality should be reviewed( ijtihad) then , you Mr civilization come and say : we're living the 21 st century and things have changed since the early days of Islam and that Islam is a progressive religion !! it's true that Islam is a progressive religion but it's impossible to paste it on every issue like homosexuality that is ! it's forbidden, strictly forbidden, because Islam is based on "al Fitra " (instinct) and homosexuality isn't a part of a human "fitra" so it's an awry path, it's called going astray of the right path ! and nobody of our "moderate" and non-moderate of course scholars would allow a gay woman or man to play this role (preaching), even a moslem shepherd in a distant place on earth wouldn't listen to her, on the contrary, he'd swear at her and wish her a bon voyage to Hell khalidatan Mokhalladatan ! and the fact that i've never heard about her makes things clear for me , she's like any other kafir as long as he/she doesn't have his/her take on homosexuality and not be convinced this one is a sin !

okay, let's hide the women and children... chelhman is going to drop the "dogma argument"...

there will be no survivors... (

Last year She was promoting her book and and her take on gender issues in the states and the muslim countries, and the war in Iraq...all this was on Bill Maher ( Real Time) show on HBO. She is well read and proud of who she is. Given the oppression she was under, she can come across as prudish in her comments but she can heold her own in discussions and she did on the show and was applauded by a libertarian audience...U-tube her name and you'll learn more about her...

LeMask,

Homosexuality is not a product of society, it's in nature as well and it's been around long before the notion of society was ever conceived. Look it up.


Hi Shelby,

Irshad doesn't give preaches, she's just asking that Muslims re-open the books, get back to the free-thinking that was once their trademark.
It's not a question of trusting her or not, she's not selling anything. The fact that she's gay is irrelevant, what difference does it make ? Unless humans think with their sexual organs...
Well, we (men) are known to do that sometimes, but it's a metaphor...

What you're doing is dismissing flat out what she's forwarding because she's gay. You say homosexuality is a sin ? Maybe so, but I don't see any of those fat ulemas launching a project as hers, I don't see them pushing for a reform that would reconcile the scriptures with the reality of our modern societies.
What I see is, ulemas acting as politicians, catering to the needs of their masters in the Gulf and tightening the bolts to keep religion as an instrument of power not an arena of spirituality or faith.
Besides, "sin" is a relative term, the notion of sin is just a benchmark for simpletons, you're smart enough to figure out on you own things that are harmful to you and others. Remember that these rules were designed at a time where people were savages, killing at will was ok, it was even glorified. "Women" and "rights" were words you never saw side by side...etc
We've come a long way and so should those rules.
But how can you reform where even saying what I'm saying, is already considered a sin for some ?

You used the word "kafir", so you're casting away part of the muslim community because of something they have no control over, homosexuality is no longer a mystery, it's been thoroughly documented, it's a human trait, whether we like it or not. The choice before them is : be miserable by hiding or repressing their condition to fit the standards or live to the fullest and still have a spiritual life.
The first option gives us perverts because of bottled up urges, the second gives us people like Irshad. I prefer the latter.
What you're saying is part of humanity, because of their nature, don't have the right to speak of religion, to voice their opinions, basically you've taken their right to exist. Does that sound "muslim" to you ?


The bottom line is "tolerance", so look at it this way : we're engaged in a dialogue here, one could say we tolerate you and your views, why shouldn't we tolerate them ?
I can understand that the idea disgusts you, although...somehow I have no problem visualizing girl on girl action...Oops, my brain just shut down, that was another part of me doing the thinking



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2007 12:55 by chelhman.

Shelhman :
i see that you still haven't got the fact that homosexuality is a SIN, it IS a sin dude, whether you accept it or not at least in Islam, christianity and judaism, and qawm Lut were the real example given in Quran to show how ugly their sin was and how awful their punishement was, so if you think otherwise, well,man you gotta review your religion because when you say (You say homosexuality is a sin ? Maybe so) there's something wrong with your way of thinking when being a moslem, things like these as i said before are black or white, no gray color in between, it's not natural and all the people were perfectly created 'cuz Allah cannot make a mistake when He creates a man/woman unless some family, environment, events take their part in the education and raising of a child and these things are responsible for the amiss behavior of a human being, in arabic we say : "Al insanu ibnu bee'atih" (human is the son of his environment)... so a gay isn't born gay...in Islam we gotta treat'em like anybody else if a man it should be treated as a man even if girlish and vice versa like we're dealing with some psychos, i mean a psycho is here among us we can't bump him off just because he's psycho unless he turns dangerous for public security, and that's the case with gays who promote their acts they should be killed to avoid any contact that woiuld spread and destroy the function, the normal function of a society, Allah created man and woman and they have a role to play in this life to mate and make children in order to build a society, and homosexuality is a malfunction, a break-down and if spread it'd balls everything up, it's immoral and the consequences would be chaotic .
...........Salam !



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2007 03:08 by shelby.

Chelby,

I see you take the scriptures literally and you also seem to read one book and one book only, otherwise, you would have read the studies done on homosexuality, it's a little more complicated than "Allah created us to mate and make children" and that it doesn't "spread" because it's not a contagious disease.
We've made some progress in medecine and genetics studies since the 8th century.

I'm curious to know how you plan to exterminate homosexuals "before they spread and destroy the normal function of a society". Concentration camps perhaps ? Crematory ovens ?...Wait, what does that remind me of ?

The problem is not so much gays, I couldn't care less, but when you're done with gays, who's next ? Who would you include in the koffar club ? How far does your takfirism go ?
I find that hiding behind a literal reading of the scriptures is a fearful way of not questioning the world around ourselves, it's an autistic behavior. And it's not how it was in the beginning, Al-khawarizmi, Ibn Rushd and many others did not advance by sticking to the scriptures.
I guess we'll agree to disagree.

chelhman? a human trait you say?
i dont believe you, but i will "humour you"... so where is the problem?
we fight our nature... as Muslims, it's not a problem.

there is a lot of stuff that we can see as natural... but religion see it as a sin.

violence can be seen as a human trait. some people are total brutes. is it unfair to force them to respect the law?

would you use the same logic when it comes to incest? to zoophilia and other weird stuff we can see in our modern society?

still... as Muslims, we work for an ideal... so we dont fear to tell people how they should be...
and i will have no shame to tell a man "find yourself a wife, make kids, educate them, work hard..." and such...

ewww ! i ask people to marry with the opposite sex, what a monster i am...

LeMask,

I'm not asking you to believe me, this is not about belief, it's about knowledge. That is the fundamental difference between us, you believe, I want to know.
Besides, some things are true whether you believe in them or not.

As for fighting our nature, that's because your starting point is that it is a bad thing, for a gay person, it's like having brown eyes or blond hair, it doesn't make sense to hide it unless you're ashamed of it. Shame is felt only when religions and people like you disparage them.
Think about it : it's like racism, when you're a child you don't know you're different until somebody utters a racist insult.

The fact that you assimilate homosexuality to zoophilia or incest shows how much you're hardwired to think of them as perverts or evil. Just as a racist who grew up hearing that Arabs are thieves and leeches...

In the end, they don't bother me, I don't notice them, I don't care, why should you ?
From a muslim standpoint, everyone is solely responsible for hers/his actions, so what are you so upset about ?
You should be happy, according to you they'll burn in hell...and obviously so am I.

When I read you and others, it looks like hell is gonna be fun given the type of people you're casting away...I can't wait



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2007 11:48 by chelhman.

Hi chelhman;
Thanks for the Ibn rushd Link.
Now a word of wisdom to the guys!
I almost ran out of ink talking about the then and now, nature and nurture and staying away from blind belief, but every time, I tried the “repetitive religious discourse" is the immediate resort and second one being sheer empty-low-unfounded views let alone the gratuitous cursing! I came to the conclusion that, we either have to do with a comic/dien or somebody who's stuck with one book! Like Jr. over here! For the latter kind of "thinker", I suggest one last thing, if you're stuck with the same book, read again and again, and make the most out of it; a simple book entails a myriad of meanings, now think about how many meanings and interpretations one can get from the Quran; a book far from being simple.

I believe Krim has already advised the guys to read more. It takes hours and days of reading and preparation for an hour of discussion!

Read/ IQra'a- wasn't it the first word the prophet heard! Follow suit since you’re so keen on Religiosity!

What I find quite fascinating here is that some people here seem to be absolutely sure that they have secured their own place in heaven. So all there is to do is to run after those who are leading lifestyles that do not conform to what society and religion considers to be the norm. How about some self-criticism? Or maybe we, Muslims, do not need to take a hard look at ourselves since we are Muslims anyway and the others are just Koffars who deserve to die.

What I learned as a small child in tarbia islamia is that Islam is mo3amala (behavior). Now if part of that mo3amala does not include showing restraint when we see "abnormal" attitudes what I don't understand what I have believed in all my life.

I will add that I feel very sad when I read such radical views expressed by my fellow countrymen. Moroccans have long been known for moderation. Today unfortunately some of them have decided to follow the sef-destructive, radicalized currents usually found in some parts of the middle-east. Talking about stoning in this day and age takes us over a thousand years back. While others are looking to invent new energy and medication for diseases, we are looking to bring back stoning. No wonder the West is appalled by what our culture is producing.

Quote

You should be happy, according to you they'll burn in hell...and obviously so am I.

i honestly dont care, and i dont want them to burn in hell...
i dont want to tell them how to live or anything, i'm not power hungry. but i want to defend myself from these guys, i dont want to see their influence, or to see them speak in my name... or even as my friends or brothers...
at the second they call themselves Muslims, they put themselves in my group, and they have to face my judgement... why they dont call themselves fashion Muslims or something of this kind...

they can say they are Morrocans, this label doesnt mean a lot to me. but for me, a Muslim is heterosexual and meant to be a parent... a normal dad or mom... not a gay dude sharing his bed with the same sex...

and i know that homosexuality isnt natural. you are the one who believes them. you dont know, you follow people... i'm the one looking for knowledge, you are the one caring for beliefs here...

look at the Greeks in the past, they had a special society. they mated with men, and women were just for reproduction. they were second class citizen.
dont tell me that it was normal. people grew that way, since their birth, their education told them that men were supposed to love each others, and that women were poor citizen because they were weak and poor warriors...

it's a culture. a way of life.
so is Islam. in Islam, we teach people to live, to have a wife, or a husband. to make kids. to take care of his wife.

where is the legacy of laws for homosexuals? what are the rights of a homosexual couple? who provides to who? give me an example of gay couple in the society of the prophet.
why following the Coran, god destroyed the tribe of Lut? their only difference was homosexuality?
why god added homosexuality to the list of the signs of the end of the world?
and more more questions to go...

i wish i could believe you. but it's more than hard, it's impossible... it would change everything.

Message to Yani & Chelhman
Hey Guys, hope you're both doing fine!
Reading your posts is a sign that hope is still out there. There is hope that we will one day bring this great religion of Islam back to its pure roots. Hope that one day we will have a secular islam where ppl can nurture their critical thinking without being menaced to be stoned or behaded. Hope that we will have a free society that values the individuality and promotes the pursuit of happiness and love for life. Hope that we will see within our generation an independant juducuiary that is relevant to our reality in the 3rd millinum. Hope that we will stop rejecting minorities and instead build bridges towards all of them.
As for the two gentlemen, Shelby and Mask, I am really sick of reading them. They are a reflection of the vast majority of muslims today who proclaims that they hold the truth. The y represent to me the worst model of society that we can have.
Peace to all of you and take care after yourselves. V_P

go to hell virtual_person...
i never pretended to hold the truth... i let you this role. how dare you?

you are the one coming here to speak about your own interpretations of Islam...

oh excuse me if i prefer a more orthodox one...

we dont have the basis and mister virtual_person is looking for some advanced Islam...
our people arent able to read, and we are working to make them send rockets to Mars...

now go insult someone else... i'm sick of you hippies... you claim tolerance and equality, and you treat the others like crap... you sir are arrogant.

To Mrs Shireen :
thanks for the nice message, i've never said i've secured my place in Heaven, i ain't radical as you might think, i've got no beard ( only a three day beard ), no 3amama, no short-cut 3abaya, no stuff that "shows" i'm from the old days,i watch American films (my favs), My favorite music is Country ( oh yep !), i wear jeans and i never thought about blowing myself out because i see that most people around are Kuffar though i've never said that either about any moslem who says shahadatayn, ever ! ...nothing shows what you think, my ideas might look old-fashioned comparing to yours, you Mrs Civilization ... well, there's something missing here : when you think that al 7udoud in Islam ( stoning someone who committed adultery, or cutting off the hands of someone who stole etc...) is cruel, dark-aged you name it ...i really feel sad because a moslem girl says so, Allah has shown us the way and the right path to deal and purify the muslim society from all what would hog-tie the function of justice, if we did so with all those bastards who robbed Moroccans' money during all these years, the others wouldn't even dare thinking about it anymore, but now that there's no Shar3 now these days we hear about gay groups who are trying to have a legitimate place in a so-called Muslim country !! what's next : legitimating incest and abortion ? Islam is clear and perfect: we take it as it is or we leave it and wait for Allah's wrath, it's a religion for all ages ...as for your Western civilization that claims being an idol of justice and humanity, i say just take a look at yourselves in your own countries while some "good" people leave their fortune to their dogs or cats, others in a distant country in Africa or Asia starve & die because they got nothing to eat, you who stole most of the others' ressources and still wage war on countries you consider stubborn, destroy everything beautiful in their land, you who back a cancer-like state in Palestine and bless the" holy war" on Muslims everywhere just becuse of a stupid stereotype picture you got on arabs and moslems in the movies,... Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Bagram, and much more... ringing bells ? let me tell'em and all those who want to teach us democracy and tolerance : sure we ain't the model of civilzation as we're supposed to be now but we'll be back at you one of these days once we get back to quran and Sunnah, simply because it's the prophet's promise, and as one of the Sa7aba said : na7no Qawmon A3azzana Allahu bil Islam , mata ibtaghayna al 3izzata fi ghayrihi Athallana Allah !
remember these words you all ! Peace !

Mr Virtual-Person : wash ngoul lak ya akhi: Allah yjib shi 3qal Lewladek, Amma nta ...
...ila kanou 3andak wlad natmanna tkoun, 3al aqal,... tahhart lhom !

Hey Shelby
Two questions for you:
1) Do you know me?
2) How do you allow yourself invade my private life?
I thought I have told you a while back to go and resume your studies. You idiot!!
No wonder why all arabs exports is made of crude oil and asylmn seekers. Turkey publishes more books a year than arab counties alltogether.
Please Shelby help us reducing the gap. So off to the nearest book shop and READ!!

Mr virtual person, the smart-ass,egg-head of the forum, maybe i don't read too much books as you do but when it comes to Islamic stuff, dude you're zilch ! you know you can invent the best thing a human ever made or come out with a brilliant idea, i don't know,... you'll stay ignorant as long as your discovery don't secure your faith about Allah or tightens your relationship with Islam as a pure and lonely life-style, Einstein sure was brilliant but he never knew what life was about, poor man ! he's nothing and his ideas about relativity may seems the best thing a man ever found out but still the Supreme Truth is out there ! .. i noticed your ideas are Laic, you believe in words like : "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's; Render unto God what is God's." ... for you religion is better off kept in Mosques, and islamic heritage is dark-age tales, like a thousand nights and one night, etc ...this's first, for your question about arabs, i'll tell you something: arabs might not read as much as others (like you) do but they're smart enough to reach the best seats in sensitive centers like NASA ( Farooq Albaz many Palestinians, Lebanese and Moroccans), the hed of so many American hospitals ( Elyas Zarhouni ), Ralf Nader, Jack Nasr, Carlos Ghosn, Mohammad Al Barad'i, ringing some bells?... if you Go to the Uk you'll be astonished, in France, you'll pee your pants, i don't have enough time to name'em, to sum up arabs are the smartest people on earth, i'm proud of'em, in their countries they just didn't have the chance and the scientific research budget is poor or simply doesn't exist because of the regime and dictatorship that keeps its citizens away from carrying out their dreams ! the educational system is the baddest of all, that's why when arabs go study abroad they kick ass ! we've got the best religion though we just went awry but when we get back and hold on tight to Islam we'll come back at the whole world to make Islam the religion of the whole planet, because we are a people with a message to all human beings, we know we're right and the others are wrong, Allah is the only God that must be worshipped on earth, no Buddha, no Jesus (Allah's Prophet PBUH), no Jehova, No other god but Allah, you gotta have that in your mind if you're a real moslem ...and things like tolerence and coexistence are all bullshit, your tolerence has left no place to us and most of the wars are meant against Islam and muslims, look at the map you jerk and you'll realize how stupid you are when you thought for a second that christians and jews believe in tolerence and s**t ! and now you come out with ideas like homos' and lesbians' rights !! You are Virtually and really mistaken man! wake up !

Quote
virtual_person
Message to Yani & Chelhman
Hey Guys, hope you're both doing fine!
Reading your posts is a sign that hope is still out there. There is hope that we will one day bring this great religion of Islam back to its pure roots. Hope that one day we will have a secular islam where ppl can nurture their critical thinking without being menaced to be stoned or behaded. Hope that we will have a free society that values the individuality and promotes the pursuit of happiness and love for life. Hope that we will see within our generation an independant juducuiary that is relevant to our reality in the 3rd millinum. Hope that we will stop rejecting minorities and instead build bridges towards all of them.
As for the two gentlemen, Shelby and Mask, I am really sick of reading them. They are a reflection of the vast majority of muslims today who proclaims that they hold the truth. The y represent to me the worst model of society that we can have.
Peace to all of you and take care after yourselves. V_P

What’s up V.P? Hope you’re doing well
We know what's going on, we’re already dignifying spirituality in being humane and debating with reason rather than impulse! You can only do so much and then let it be! The question is bigger than just one group, it's about preserving Any group's right to BE within a society... that’s what makes it stronger. Gays and women, for example, are but two main groups, minorities, that must be protected/ respected and they are already proving themselves. We’re not really discussing people here; we are about their ideas and contributions...sexual orientation, religious affiliation...none of my business. Religion has nothing to do with this; and no one has sole custody of it! It's a make belief kind of game that's at most entertaining nothing more!
Take care V.P
Yani

shelby? i fully support you on many things... but there is some things i dont understand.
Arabs? the smartest people on earth? i dont think so. god never said such thing. i'm berber you know. i'm not arab... and i dont think that god said that Jews, or black or pink or blue people are the smartest...

god gave clear guidelines to judge who is the better. and religion is part of them. a good Jew can be a better man than an average Muslim if he is hard working, honest, treat his people good... Etc...

our religion is written in Arabic, it doesnt mean that the Arabs have to rule the world.
and there is a little room for tolerance in our religion, god said that he created us as tribes and groups to know each others...

but it doesnt mean that we have to abandon our values to take the values of the dominant groups. we dont have to be tolerant to the gay people. what they are doing is a sin.

we live today in a world dominated by capitalism. people are running behind money like dogs. some are making money without working, and other are working 7 days a week... to be extremely poor.

should we adopt this system as Muslims? not! it's not our system. i'm sure that it's a good system. that it haves it's benefits and problems. that nothing is perfect.
but as Muslims we did a different choice. and this choice is: an economy where interests dont exist. and where the poor receive 3% of the money we make.

laicity was made by the CHristians to protect themselves against a corrupt clergy. it's an excellent idea. they grew smart enough to understand that these guys dont speak for god.

but we have no clergy as Muslims. so once again, we ARE NOT christians to need laicity.
the person who comes to tell you that Islam needs laicity is an idiot who thinks he is a Christian...

dont listen to him. and democracy was made by men.

Yani,
this speech about be and let be is becoming old fashioned. Why don't we live and let pedophiles live? Why don't we live and let drug users live. There are laws in nature. We might not be aware of them but we are still subject to their influence. The law of gravity existed way before Isaac Newton discovered it. Whether you believe it is true or not, if you jump from a high building this law will apply to you and you will get killed. It is the same for the laws of nature. God told us the story of Qawm Lott, Sodome and Ghomore for a reason. It is clearly mentioned that those people committed Fahisha(the highest form of sin) because they had sex with other men. Let's not lie to ourselves. Ibn Khaldoun mentioned that homosexuals become very visible at the end of every civilization.

Almoha;

"My" stand/ speech is old fashioned, Ok,I got that, Thak you!
...and YOUR point is?

I have friends who are gay, but they keep it to themselves !! they are really nice and cool !! so why discriminate gays !! we must however discriminate homophoby !! So let us accept gays and not discriminate against them !!
ps: am hetero lol