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Morocco # English board

منتدى المغرب و المغاربة حول العالم

For those following the next elections in Morocco :
What are the odds of the PJD actually getting to power and what would be the consequences on everyday life ?
Can religion tighten its grip on social issues any further ? Anybody can shed some light on this ?

I just hope that if they ever get to Gov, never to impose their way of life on others. I strongly believe that when it comes to religion, one should be free to choose ones way. I never needed anyone to remind me that I’m a Muslim, nor what my duties are. I also do believe that PJD has many well educated people on its body who wouldn't want to see Morocco go into what other countries went through when Islamic parties get the power. remember, and I believe it was the prophet PBUH who said: "LA IKRAHA FIDDINE" Which in English might be something close to: NO FORCING IN RELIGION, I know it doesn't give the real meaning in English, but may be someone else could do better in translating that for our non Arabic readers on this Forum.
I'm for transparency in election, but yes, like many, I'm worried about what some might try to do once they’re elected.
salam,
Almot

Hi,

I heard this party is not very conservative. they represent what it’s called the moderate Muslims…I think it’s an intelligent way to balance the power in the country and to keep those who may use the religion for other purposes calm….it’s also reassuring for Moroccan who are worried we may lose our identity and religion with the new changes…in the past the Islamic countries who had no religion parties became trouble from the radical Muslims. It didn’t work either in the countries where only the religious party had power ….in our case it’s a middle way …I think it’s clever…I’m positive about it…

Quote
almotanabi
I never needed anyone to remind me that I’m a Muslim, nor what my duties are. I also do believe that PJD has many well educated people on its body who wouldn't want to see Morocco go into what other countries went through when Islamic parties get the power.

Maybe if you do not need that , some do ..

But coming back to the heart of the assumption, look at turkey, it is now better than ever under the ruling of the islamic party overthere

My voice goes to them anyways

9bi7 said :

"Maybe if you do not need that , some do .."


Really ? And who's to decide what's a good muslim ? Who will set the standards ?
You see that's exactly what I am worried about in 2007.


"But coming back to the heart of the assumption, look at turkey, it is now better than ever under the ruling of the islamic party overthere"


Turkey is a secular country by law, everytime the islamic party crosses the line between state and religion, tanks start rolling in in Istanbul. The army guarantees that things don't get out of hand. Our country is not secular but has found a fragile balance. Very fragile. Take a snapshot of any street in Casablanca now and look at one from the 80's, you'll see an awful lot of scarfs now, it's symptomatic. That's how I measure the inroads islamists have made in our country. I draw the line at CHOICE, as long as we don't offend anyone, we should have the choice to live our faith the way we want.
If the PJD sticks to a certain orthodoxy and rigor in managing public finances, I'm ok with that. But a party using religion as a flag, isn't going to stop at just managing budgets.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2006 09:51 by chelhman.

The "who" set the standards is the creator, therefore, you can "see" the "standards" in the Quran, Sunnah & Ijma3, if at least some people are leasy to take pride in reading quran, other will do and instruct by.

for the second part, yes our country is very fragile, because it tries to please every body, the conservatism of the east and the liberalism of the west. In other words, our country does not have a definite vision for the future, and so do our fellow citizen, that's why we can feel that no body has real belonginess to the land, people now see overseas as the ultimate destination !



PS: when I generalize I do mean the most not all

l9bi7 said :

"for the second part, yes our country is very fragile, because it tries to please every body, the conservatism of the east and the liberalism of the west. In other words, our country does not have a definite vision for the future, and so do our fellow citizen, that's why we can feel that no body has real belonginess to the land, people now see overseas as the ultimate destination !"

I don't think we are trying to please anyone, we are what we are, Morocco has always been the link between the east and the west, that's what made it so great, you can be a conservative muslim and be at ease, no one will ever knock your door at 5am and haul you to a torture chamber, take a look at Egypt for that. You can also have a progressive view on religion and also be at ease, we don't have a religious police, take a look at Iran or Saudia Arabia for that.
As for the standard, I agree but isn't religion a private matter ? isn't every individual accountable for his/her sins ?
Where is it written that anyone has a responsability for the religious fervor of others ?
Public affairs and religion should be separate. You elect a body of government to run the country, to provide public services, to keep you and your family safe, not to tell you how to worship and definitely not how to think.

When I say "we" I am again talking about the majority of the citizens, go to any high school in morocco and ask what would you like to do in the future and take a while to analyze how many are lost compare them, to the same people of egypt, england, iran, iraq (even !) palestine, usa or even brazil. make and educated sample and try .. results are of paramount differences.

As of religion responsiblity, look at the moroccan constitution, 4th article, Morocco is a muslim country, where the king is the responsible and the protector of Muslims ( Hami hima lwatani wa dine), The official language is Arabic ... and so on , unless you want to change the constituion, then change the whole country legal view, that is another thing.


Religion is foremost a matter of conduct, why should it be separate ? islam has never been like christianity ou boudhism.. not a religion of figures and representation. Religion is not only a spiritual thing as many may think, but religion is an education, a civil code and spiritual one.

Let me tell you even if you think it is contrary to dictate ones religious belonginess, this is just a lame excuse so other evangelist can take the lead and gain some field.


Moreover, I would like to list some things that are not Okay

Prostitution must not be permitted (therefore pedophilia will follow)
Alcohol consumption must not be permitted (look how many crimes are outsourcing of that)
Corruption must not be permitted


three basique, very childish point of view right ? guess what ! they were forbidden under the religion, guess also that if people were to follow the religion, how society will be cleaned from its more unmercyful diseases


Indeed, Nowhere whatsoever has been ruled by a secular party, well very easy to understand, people are biased on their religion in their matter of conduct. Guess what ? no solution is a fit for every problem. Maybe if we just keep our minds focused in a more important issue, like how to develop our R&D that will be more beneficial to battle about if the government will allow or not less punishement of street prostitute.

Quote
chelhman
l9bi7 said :

"for the second part, yes our country is very fragile, because it tries to please every body, the conservatism of the east and the liberalism of the west. In other words, our country does not have a definite vision for the future, and so do our fellow citizen, that's why we can feel that no body has real belonginess to the land, people now see overseas as the ultimate destination !"

I don't think we are trying to please anyone, we are what we are, Morocco has always been the link between the east and the west, that's what made it so great, you can be a conservative muslim and be at ease, no one will ever knock your door at 5am and haul you to a torture chamber, take a look at Egypt for that. You can also have a progressive view on religion and also be at ease, we don't have a religious police, take a look at Iran or Saudia Arabia for that.
As for the standard, I agree but isn't religion a private matter ? isn't every individual accountable for his/her sins ?
Where is it written that anyone has a responsability for the religious fervor of others ?
Public affairs and religion should be separate. You elect a body of government to run the country, to provide public services, to keep you and your family safe, not to tell you how to worship and definitely not how to think.

sorry, chelhman, as secular parties exist and they have non religiuos referentials, as non secular parties exist and they have religious referentials, these are two points of view, and both have the same rights to exist , where is it written that to do politics u should have any referential a part from the religious one?, as some people get inspired by marx, adam smith, or themselves to manage the affairs of their fellow citizen, others can be inspired by another point of views and in democracy it's to electors and the people to choose which category of people they want to get governed by. and the people have the sovereignty to have the choices they want. and I think that in our country we practice a good version of secularity even we it's not written in the constitution, the lifetime advisor of the king is jew, the jew people live with no problem, christian people as well, have u ever seen so come and knock at ur door to check if u muslim or not?, but at the same time we don't practice the wrong version of secularity which encourage homosexuality and prohib to a muslim girl to wear her headscarf at school, is it secularity not allowing people to prctice their religion? or is secularity means the negation of religion, not all but some of them?

Quote
chelhman
9bi7 said :

"Maybe if you do not need that , some do .."


Really ? And who's to decide what's a good muslim ? Who will set the standards ?
You see that's exactly what I am worried about in 2007.


"But coming back to the heart of the assumption, look at turkey, it is now better than ever under the ruling of the islamic party overthere"


Turkey is a secular country by law, everytime the islamic party crosses the line between state and religion, tanks start rolling in in Istanbul. The army guarantees that things don't get out of hand. Our country is not secular but has found a fragile balance. Very fragile. Take a snapshot of any street in Casablanca now and look at one from the 80's, you'll see an awful scarfs now, it's symptomatic. That's how I measure the inroads islamists have made in our country. I draw the line at CHOICE, as long as we don't offend anyone, we should have the choice to live our faith the way we want.
If the PJD sticks to a certain orthodoxy and rigor in managing public finances, I'm ok with that. But a party using religion as a flag, isn't going to stop at just managing budgets.

sorry but I didn't get ur point about "awful scarfs" do u mean it's awful to wear headscarf? is it awful to practice one's religion?

Sorry, my mistake, it's a typo, I meant to type "awful lot of scarfs", I'll edit and correct.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2006 09:52 by chelhman.

even though Chelhman, the "awful" adj is not very well chosen, why a lot of scarfs are awful as long as it's a choice, I think U and I have to respect others choices and do not forget that morocco is a muslim country and a lot of people still respect their religion and if a lot of them have CHOOSED to put scarves then its their probleme, not urs not mine, u might find it retrograde or completely modern, but it's point of view and not necessiraly what people think

I like things the way they are now, it's an acceptable balance. Why take it any further ? We are not a secular country by law but we've always been a tolerant one. I never asked for a negation of religion, I'm saying it should stay in the spiritual domain. I don't need religious references to see that prostitution or pedophilia is bad, common sense tells me that.
Like I said in a french speaking post here, it seems to me that religion is being used as immigration is being used in Europe to win votes. It's a populist approach and it's dangerous. But it's difficult to counter in a debate, like the anti-patriotic pie-in-the-face response in the U.S, if you say something you're labeled anti-religious and the debate is over. Let's just be careful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2006 10:21 by chelhman.

marocain_fier said :

"even though Chelhman, the "awful" adj is not very well chosen"

Relax, it's just a common idiomatic expression, there's no disrespect here. But this is what this forum is for, I suppose, we can practice english and also learn stuff.

am relaxed chelhman, don't worry, what I want to say to you is that awful is just ur point of view but doesn't reflect a truth or a rational jugment, but u can hold it here because it is a forum opened to everybody aven those who lack some rigour.

it really makes happy to see morrocan people using english in such topics.may maghrib be proud of you, on this holyday.aameeen