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Will Muslims Ever wake up?
Krim [ PM ]
23 November 2006 16:51
By Ali Sina


In an article entitled “What went wrong?” Dr Farrukh Saleem, a freelance writer from Islamabad painted a very bleak picture of the Islamic world showing the Muslims are the poorest, the most illiterate and the most backward people of the world. He wrote:

The combined annual GDP of 57 Muslim countries remains under $2 trillion. America , just by herself, produces goods and services worth $10.4 trillion; China $5.7 trillion, Japan $3.5 trillion and Germany $2.1 trillion. Even India 's GDP is estimated at over $3 trillion (purchasing power parity basis).

Oil rich Saudi Arabia , U.A.E., Kuwait and Qatar collectively produce goods and services (mostly oil) worth $430 billion; Netherlands alone has a higher annual GDP while Buddhist Thailand produces goods and services worth $429 billion.

Muslims are 22 percent of the world population and produce less than five percent of global GDP. Even more worrying is that the Muslim countries' GDP as a percent of the global GDP is going down over time. The Arabs, it seems, are particularly worse off. According to the United Nations' Arab Development Report: "Half of Arab women cannot read; One in five Arabs live on less than $2 per day; Only 1 percent of the Arab population has a personal computer, and only half of 1 percent use the Internet; Fifteen percent of the Arab workforce is unemployed, and this number could double by 2010; The average growth rate of the per capita income during the preceding 20 years in the Arab world was only one-half of 1 percent per annum, worse than anywhere but sub-Saharan Africa."

The planet's poorest countries include Ethiopia , Sierra Leone , Afghanistan , Cambodia , Somalia , Nigeria , Pakistan and Mozambique . At least six of the poorest of the poor are countries with a Muslim majority.

Conclusion: Muslims of the world are among the poorest of the poor.

Fifty-seven Muslim majority countries have an average of ten universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people; India has 8,407 universities, the U.S. has 5,758. From within 1.4 billion Muslims Abdus Salam and Ahmed Zewail are the only two Muslim men who won a Nobel Prize in physics and chemistry (Salam pursued his scientific work in Italy and the UK , Zewail at California Institute of Technology). Dr Salam in his home country is not even considered a Muslim.

Over the past 105 years, 1.4 billion Muslims have produced eight Nobel Laureates while a mere 14 million Jews have produced 167 Nobel Laureates. Of the 1.4 billion Muslims less than 300,000 qualify as 'scientists', and that converts to a ratio of 230 scientists per one million Muslims. The United States of America has 1.1 million scientists (4,099 per million); Japan has 700,000 (5,095 per million).

Fact: Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent.

Consider, for instance, that Muslims constitute 22 percent of world population with a 1 percent share of Nobel Prizes. Jews constitute 0.23 percent of world population with a 22 percent share of Nobel Prizes.

What really went wrong? Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak. What went wrong? Arriving at the right diagnosis is extremely critical because the prescription depends on it. Consider this:

Here is where I thought he is going to tell it like it is and make it clear that Islam is the cause of it all. But you will be surprised to see what were Dr. Saleem's diagnoses:

Diagnosis 1: Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak because they have 'abandoned the divine heritage of Islam'. Prescription: We must return to our real or imagined past.

Diagnosis 2: Muslims are poor, illiterate and weak because we have refused to change with time.

Keep pace with time -- al Quran
chelhman [ PM ]
23 November 2006 18:19
Interesting article, the figures are eloquent, 57 muslim countries produce less than Germany ?
I wonder if they've factored in muslim brains outside their homelands and contributing to the prosperity of western countries.

Either way, if the conditions were favorable, they would go back and change the tide. Something to think about Mrs ChekrouniSmiling Smiley
riffman [ PM ]
23 November 2006 19:53
Don't think it has to do with religion. How about singapore? It's politics and the way moslem government tend to rule the country, stealing from their people in order to build their wealth, or by weapons from rich coutries just to boast towards their moslem neighbor.
zaki7 [ PM ]
23 November 2006 21:07
Indeed it has nothing nothing to do with religion, it has to do with muslims. The article is clear about this distinction. And if 57 countries are doing that bad, then we must be doing something wrong, don't you think?
site4everything [ PM ]
23 November 2006 21:46
Muslims will wake up one day and it is only a matter of time but will it be too late?
I like to point out that yes, I agree with the data that some of the most poorest countries in the world are Muslims but spiritually they are rich. I rarely see a kid in Europe smiling even though he /she is living in a rich country in contrast with somebody living in a poor country. The most important tool to advance us is knowledge and its proper use but saddly, it has been forgotten.
Krim [ PM ]
24 November 2006 11:16
Hi Guys
I attended a talk yesterday by Mohammed Moaqit on the Moudawana.
A very interesting guy. He is a professor in Casa. The man who wrote
the book entitled "Du despotisme à la democratie...
Everyone know that the new moudawana strengthen the rights of women.
Imagine that 73 % of the moroccan women are against it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2006 11:42 by Krim.
LeMask [ PM ]
24 November 2006 11:56
Krim it's curious indeed, can you explain why so many women are opposed to the moudawana?

and by the way guys, Islam says that we arent equals. some are more educated, more capable and bla bla bla...

so, can we add a law where people who cant read, cant vote? and that criminals dont have the right to vote?

would be good not? just an idea.
Krim [ PM ]
24 November 2006 13:07
In these statistics, the numbers for educated women in favor of the new Moudawana is of course much higher.
This means education eduaction education................................
Ignorance still is the most important obstacle for any reform.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2006 01:21 by Krim.
LeMask [ PM ]
24 November 2006 13:12
Krim i still dont understand Sad Smiley

you say that they are AGAINST the moudawana even if it gives them more rights?
it's stupid... they are so dumb?

even a woman who cant write her name knows what is good for her. you ask her if she wants 1000$ and she will say yes.

maybe that they dont understand that the moudawana is good for them. this is what you mean? i'm really confused here.

dont mistake dumb and missinformed and not informed.

even educated women can be misinformed... you lie to them, and tell them that Islam is a religion enslaving women, and they will spit on this religion.

you see what i mean? it's a confusing statement. i dont know what you mean Sad Smiley
AyL [ PM ]
24 November 2006 13:21
i think coz they thought that almodawana was against a chari3a ..i was reallyglad that morocco made that reform .. in almodawana .. but i still remeber that some ppl wre really mad about it .. and tried to convince us that it was a way to change the religion and all ...
the prob .. is that ppl in morocco areignorant .. and if we say that our relegion is the best way to resolve our prob .. most of ppl doesnt know what relgion is.. and it will be just a big mess ...i think the first changes should start with the education ..and give them the freedom to chose... then maybe we can make a change ...
LeMask [ PM ]
24 November 2006 16:37
AyL the NEW moudawana isnt so great Sad Smiley

and there is funny people in Morroco who want to put somekind of equality between men and women...

it's funny in a muslim country... equality between men and women would be a disaster for the rights of women...

because if my knowledge is correct, Islam gave many things to the women.
economic security in marriage.
no duty in war.

and bla bla
and if these morons vote equality between men and women, we could see women in dangerous jobs in the army, or women using their money to feed their kids... while these things are in fact, the religious duty of the men.

i hope i'm mistaking, because it's so so so dumb that it's funny like hell...

"eh, i'm a feminist, fighting to take out the rights of women!! BRING ISLAM DOWN AAAH!! i WANT EQUALITY AAAHHH" ROFL, so dumb...
chelhman [ PM ]
24 November 2006 16:42

equality between men and women would be a disaster for the rights of women

I'm sorry, I have to ask : do you even think about what you write or you just close your eyes and let your fingers run on the keyboard ?
AyL [ PM ]
24 November 2006 16:53
Dear Lemask ..
how can we talk about moroccco as a muslim country and we all know that itsnt right ... te modwana tried to resolve the family prob sinds we re not working with ta3alim chari3a . ...
LeMask [ PM ]
24 November 2006 19:32
chelhman ummmm, i dont need a lot of reflexion time indeed. why? i dont understand.

let me give you an exemple, in Islam, the husband have to spend for his wife and the kids... everything is on the man, the housing, the clothes, the food... damn, everything is on the husband.

even if the women makes more money than the husband, all the money she makes is HERS, she spend it on whatever she wants, it's not her duty to pay for the kids and bla bla bla... she can do it if she wants to, but it's her right to use her own money for herself without caring about the rest.

but if we grand equality to the women (i should say to the man)...

the wife will have to spend as her husband... she will have to pay for the house and she will have to work...

it's only an exemple... but do you see what i mean?

once you grant equality, you take out the rights of the women... it's a disaster... they are taking rights granted by god to every muslim woman... it's really sad.
chelhman [ PM ]
24 November 2006 19:35
LeMask, there's a flip side to that, it's the inheritance rules, a woman inherits far less than the man.
On marriage laws, a man could marry over the first wife without her consent, my grand-father had three wives, I sort of know about this.
Equality was necessary in a 21st century society where women are now the main workforce in Morocco.
LeMask [ PM ]
24 November 2006 19:50
chelhman oh? you think about that?
then it's not a problem, on the economic side, women have the advantage, if they cry about 50% of the heritage, then they are stupid...

i dont mind equality on this point in fact... but you would be taking a right granted by god. would you dare to contradict god on this point?

and arent you going to totally enslave men? it's hard to play with these things.

i think that we should have faith in god, god knows what we need, and he told us what to do. now let's find what he said and do it.

and i dont think that equality is necessary...

but you are right, we should make the laws of divorce and marriage smoother toward the women...

and this could be done easily with Ijtihad... or even without Ijtihad...

because if my knowledge of Islam is correct (on this point at least), there is conditions in marriage...

like: money, sexual pleasure, security, good treatement and bla bla bla...

and if one fails to fulfil these "conditions", the other (wife or husband) have the right to ask for divorce... and the judge would try to find an arrangement to "correct the mistake" (because someone isnt doing his duty after all) and if not solution is find, the divorce is declared...

and it seems perfect to me... why change it?

of course, you will tell me that it's not working that way in Morroco...
but it's in the books of Islamic education, we know about that since we are kids, they think that it's the right way to do it... then why we dont do it?

and it will always be better than the actual system...

and an extra bonus, faithful people will accept it because it's a religious law (the way of god)...

and another extra bonus for the difficult clients, people will respect the law...

another extra bonus for the impossible clients, even a low faith will have a problem not following the law because of fear of godly punishment... less corruption Smiling Smiley

and i can give another one, but it's boring lol
chelhman [ PM ]
24 November 2006 19:56
LeMask, your wife or girlfriend must be very happy with a man like you.Smiling Smiley
Almot [ PM ]
24 November 2006 20:19
"What in God's name are you talking about?"
If I'm to respond to everything you said, 99.9% of which I find Unbelievable and absurd, it'll take me 2 days to do that and I just don't have the time. It’s very sad to have nowadays, in 2006, people with your kind of thinking, still speaking the language of Quraich and starting new Daahis and Al Ghabraa again and again, I hope you know what those words are, if you don’t, do as the holy Coran says, READ, Iqraa.
zaki7 [ PM ]
24 November 2006 20:50
Chelhman, did you just say girlfriend? Watch out, LeMask's fatwa is coming Smiling Smiley
chelhman [ PM ]
24 November 2006 20:53
Oops, you're right Zaki7, I forgot about the no-dating rule before marriage, silly me !Smiling Smiley
LeMask [ PM ]
24 November 2006 21:09
zaki7 drop stereotypes will you?
i have an ideal, but it stays an ideal. i try to reach it, but i dont always succeed.
it's hard to succeed alone.

but if you care, i do have a girl friend... she knows my parents, i know hers, everybody knows i'm with her... what should i say? we arent married... we havent done the paperwork yet. but we are in France. it's not required.

maybe in the future... and if you ask me, she is happy with me, we never really fight... she never complains about anything from me. we disagree sometimes, but it's very fine.

and her parents really like me... so i dont understand why you say that. she is indeed happy with me. and she tells me often about her friends who are complaining about their boyfriends... and until now, these girls were complaining about stuff i would NEVER do.

there was a time when people could marry very soon... dont know for sure if it's good or bad.

do you think i'm a Taliban or such? lol a dude with a barb screaming JIHAD every morning lol ...

and Almot, PM whenever you have time. i'm interested in whatever you have to say about this.
AyL [ PM ]
24 November 2006 22:04
thats haramm.. wait till u marry her .. a good moslem wont do THAT No No there is no friendship between man or a woman .. Angel
LeMask [ PM ]
24 November 2006 22:07
AyL, even if i dont like to let a foreigner into my personnal life.

marriage is a deal between a man and a woman, a promise, an engagement, but also taking responsabilities and warning the society that X is with Y. the concerned society isnt the state but rather the family and the close people.

and it's already done.

but yes, it's not perfect right now. but it's hard to practice it's religion in a non-muslim world.

if you think that the paper work we do in Morroco would protect anyone... anyway...
AyL [ PM ]
24 November 2006 22:09
now .. im just teasing you .. you free to live ur life like u want but the bad thing is to impose ur way of thinking to others ..i found this .. and it sound interesting "The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge"
Krim [ PM ]
24 November 2006 22:38
Can you tell us how did you discover Islam ?At what âge ?
How can you explain this strong love for islam ?
Born as a kiod you hear all your surronding talking about God and the prophete and you did accept every thing they tell you. you did never hesitate to believe in every single word.
At an âge of 6 probably you already convinced yourself that this is the truth at any time and everywhere???
I will appreciate if you can answer these questions.
LeMask [ PM ]
24 November 2006 23:17
Krim it started at the 9/11 attacks... i never really cared about religion.
i believe in god since i'm a kid. but it was more "spirituality" than real religion. in my family there isnt any religious person. my mom is the most religious, but she never gave us a religious education, she practice it in her room, you can see her praying somedays, that is all.

in high school, i learned a lot about religion, i loved religion, i saw it as a miracle solution to all our problems. but i was a kid, i was more interested in girls than in religion or god to be honest.

but when the 9/11 attacks were on TV, i started to really care. but i never left it out. i think about religion very often, but i didnt take the time to read or to really study it, i have my life as a student to do first. maybe later when i have time.

so i started to think about religion at 18-19... in university i speak about religion, but i have no muslims in my cirle of friends. maybe one or two, but these guys are (god forgives me) totally retarded... they are antisemitic and racist... a weird mix of nationalism and religion.

my closest "friend" in religion, is an Israeli Zionist in a forum... he is a total Nazi to be honest... but i like a coherence in the way he thinks. he lived a trauma and wants to see his people (the jews) rise again. i think that i'm "somehow" in the same situation... "somehow". i hate him and see him as an enemy, but i understand him. he isnt really good, but he is honest.

anyway, i'm more interested in economics in religion... i hate capitalism and LOVE communism... but unfortunately, communism isnt respecting the unequal nature of the human being and doesnt respect the right to own.
communism is a perfect system and it's unfortunately imcompatible with the unperfect nature of man.

but god is much sharper than any man, and he gave us an ideal system to live our lives without sucking the blood of weaker people.

and i can say that about every law in Islam. i'm so sure that it would work.
you just cant know how sure i am. i really think that if we try to follow it with a little good intent, we will save ourselves from destruction...
and i feel frustration... we are so weak right now, and we hesitate... it's like a poor man fearing to loose the few money he got in his pocket. what do we have to loose? let's take the risk. let's play the big win.
chelhman [ PM ]
24 November 2006 23:23

Krim it started at the 9/11 attacks... i never really cared about religion.

There's your problem, right there. Everything about you is summed up here. You're no better than the rednecks in the US or the Villierist in France, you're just facing each other and ruining everything for everyone else. The warmongers are building empires on your fears.
Almot [ PM ]
24 November 2006 23:27
so lemask,
what you mean by 9/11 made you more intrested in religion? i'm really curious
and what you mean by
let's take the risk. let's play the big win. what risk and what is the big win in your eyes for us to win?
AyL [ PM ]
24 November 2006 23:33
Dear chelhman ...
maybe we just should tryto understand .. his point of view .. everyone in his age .. after 9/11 were confused about things specially .. religion .. and with all the miserabels that we see everyday we try to look for a refuge .. ., something that can give us the feeling of safety ..when everything is suspicious .. everyone is looking for the truth .. and the truth is hard to get ..
chelhman [ PM ]
24 November 2006 23:43
Hi AyL,

Oooh, I've tried with "boy wonder" here, trust me on that.
But I still can't figure out how he can live on a daily basis in a normal society.
One thing I'm sure of, it never gets teadious to read him, every post is more colorful than the last.Smiling Smiley
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