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منتدى المغرب و المغاربة حول العالم

AssalamoAlaikom,

“Whatever LOLA wants” is a new film by Nabil Ayouch out in France last Wednesday



The director and producer Nabil Ayouch casts what its said to be a loving eye over the glorious art of oriental dance and those who practice it. They also said this film reflects a sentimental, East-meets-West comedy. In brief it’s a story of a New York postal worker who went to Egypt to take belly dancing lessons from a legendary instructor.
I read about the film and I think its all about love, romance, belly dancing ……
Don’t we Arabs ‘ve a valuable things to show the west rather than dancing, singing and showing the navels and curves of of sisters…??? Don’t we ‘ve a rich history, a refined culture and exciting traditions to be proud of??? What is the point of making such films???
At the time when almost all Arab countries are enduring the unbearable (food crises, illiteracy, jobless, poverty, criminality, etc…) our writers, producers and directors are busy to look for short cuts to make lots of money….
We want these film makers to contribute finding solutions to our grinding povrity, to find ways to fight with bureaucracy and injustice…..

I would like to know your opinions about this topic
Thank you very much

to make esay money it seem normal to give more importance to those films

why they should spend moeny for something interesting but not rentable ?

THe market is open for all and the producers target certain customers. For the producer to be commited to tackling an issue, they need funding! In these times, Moroccan Cinema is improving despite it's sluggish steps,... regardless of the quality. Quantity is needed for there to be lessons to learn- Technically speaking. AS far as content, and that's what you're talking about, I believe the early days of MORoccan cinema are still interpreted as Boring and more symbolic and silent!
That phase is- I hope long and gone. It doesn't hurt to focus more on entertaing and audience while tackling serious issues.
I haven't seen the movie in question, but I am sure there's lots of relevant issues that can be tackeled THROUGH dancing!- A movie- American animated one- comes to mind that mainly uses Music and "dance" to tackle very serious issue(s): Global warming, Environment, abuse or over use of natural resources...the title is HAPPY FEET.

Last: I think we should rethink how we look at the art of Belly-dance! Is is ethnically related to arabs, is it demeaning to certain social groups...

These few ideas are not in defense of the movie because I am yet to see it, if I can.
Good day

AssalamoAlaikom,


Dear friend,

I guess u already watched “ali zaoua” “une minute de soleil en moins” & u ‘ve an idea ab “all what lola wants” which ‘r all related to our director Nabil Ayouch.
I wonder if we really need to use obscene words or expose the bodies of our sisters and daughters half naked or almost naked in order to tackle an issue. No need to show me two actors of opposite sex flirting on the bed to pass me the message that they ‘r making adultery. Just showing both of them lonely in the house entering a bedroom can summarize a whole scene…. What ab our religion as Muslims, does it say it’s ok to deal with such issues that way???? What ab our culture and Islamic customs??? Don’t u see we start to spoil our Islamic identity by imitating the west who cares ab nothing but money and materials things…??????
without doubt we all know the story of what happened to the crow who wanted to imitite the pigeon walking.....

thanks.

"The right to choose", I remember this slogan from an advertising advocacy group, nobody is forcing you to see the movie.
It's an expression of art according to the director, you don't have to adhere to it, it's not a propaganda movie that is forced upon you.
Movies nowadays are clearly labeled, if it contains harsh language, nudity scenes, you are told beforehand.

As for the "islamic identity" and the West, you have to know that you have right-wing evangelicals, extreme-right european groups...etc who share your views. So this is not about "islamic identity" (although, I don't really know what that means), it's about conservatism, a state of mind shared by a lot of people across the human spectrum.
Arabo-islamic culture at its root is far more liberal that you would imagine, take a look at the link below.
Oups ! I almost forgot : Warning ! This reading is not suited for minors, people easily offended by strong language, erotic narrating...blablabla.

[www.telquel-online.com]

Cheers.

AssalamoAlaikom,

While reading your comment I concluded that you got confused. When you talked about "The right to choose" you remind me of the disenfranchised and emancipation movement whom i know some of their commanders. Their views of liberal emancipation in this work were summarized by one writer as entailing "liberal status of individual in relation to the society, liberality before the law, regardless of religion, property, or other private characteristics of individual persons" they are somewhat a rebellion against what is pure, sacred and pious.
Then you talked about Arabo-Islamic liberality that I support from the bottom of my heart because their commanders care about the Islamic identity that you still don't know what it means. Our role model, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has left for us an Islamic identity, a very powerful teachings and yet we succumb to compromising and acting as if we have no criteria to guide us! Look back at your life, your family, your community and ask yourself how often we all have acted first and then referred our actions to the Qur’an and the Sunnah. the liberality to get rid of the clothes to promote the fine art you are defending is not mentioned neither in our qur’an nor in the sunnah….
Thank you for the link. It’s great and informing and I found no strong languages or erotic narrating. It’s a teaching of our respectful scholars and religious scientist and not from our erotic film makers

Thank you

Kamal a,

First of all, thank you for the sanctimonious, selfrighteous speech about me being confused. Careful not to fall looking
down on me.

As for the subject, the link I gave you is full of seriously erotic writings, and the journalists added that they had to censor some of it. You have the prophet talking about foreplay and sanctioning cunnilingus but somehow that's less offending to you than belly dancers from N. Ayouch's movie because it is stamped "islamic".

Don't you think you're being a tidbit biased in your outrage ?

AssalamoAlaikom,

Dear Chelhman,

First we don’t post, interfere or comment without giving our Salam, I think it’s the ABC of courtesy

I’m not yet a sanctimonious nor a self-righteous. I’m a simple Muslim who defends good manners and invoke for a social relation free of salacity and indecency...is there any wrongdoing in doing so???

I’m not surprised you consider my reply an outrage. What can you expect from someone who defends nudity, lewdness and profanity stamped with the logo “the right to choose”???

Sunnah of our Prophet (pbuh) is the right path we’r following, his speeches lighten Muslims way and give them the strength to go ahead and fight against ignorance and obscurity. If you think our Prophet (pbuh) talking about foreplay and sanctioning cunnilingus is offending than belly dancers from N. Ayouch's movie then it’s your “right to choose” = “it’s your right to think”, nobody is forcing you to adhere to his message, it's not a propaganda belief that is forced upon you.

thank you

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kamal a
First we don’t post, interfere or comment without giving our Salam, I think it’s the ABC of courtesythumbs up

My dear friend, in our country we never said Assalamou 3alaïkoum unless adressing an assembly, we used to greet with a "msselkheir" which was short for "massa al kheir", it's only recently with the rising of an over-religious atmosphere in the country and among MREs abroad that the language morphed. Some zealots go so far as to throw you the whole "assalamou 3alaïkoum wa ra7matoullah wa barakatouh".

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I’m not yet a sanctimonious nor a self-righteous. I’m a simple Muslim who defends good manners and invoke for a social relation free of salacity and indecency...is there any wrongdoing in doing so???

You're not just a simple muslim, you're from this new breed of muslims, or should I say old breed reborn, who think they have the responsability to bring us (i.e lost sheep) to the right path. It's becoming some sort of proselytism turned inwards.
Thank you but we've done ok so far in our country, we don't need really your guidance. Just take care of yourselves, it's a full time job and your compass is all out of wack anyway.

Quote

I’m not surprised you consider my reply an outrage. What can you expect from someone who defends nudity, lewdness and profanity stamped with the logo “the right to choose”???

How else would you qualify your reaction ? It it's not outrage than what is it ? You took the time to open a thread to share with us your dismay, what was it for ?
I don't defend lewdness and nudity, I defend the "it's none of our business" or "d'khoul sou9 rassk" concept if you prefer. That's what we do when something does not agree with us in our country. Live and let live.
If they want to belly dance, make a movie of it and you don't like it, just don't watch, others will appreciate. Art is like beauty, it's "in the eye of the beholder".

Quote

Sunnah of our Prophet (pbuh) is the right path we’r following, his speeches lighten Muslims way and give them the strength to go ahead and fight against ignorance and obscurity. If you think our Prophet (pbuh) talking about foreplay and sanctioning cunnilingus is offending than belly dancers from N. Ayouch's movie then it’s your “right to choose” = “it’s your right to think”, nobody is forcing you to adhere to his message, it's not a propaganda belief that is forced upon you.

Copy-pasting my arguments is your way of affirming your views ? How original...
And for the "nobody is forcing you to adhere to his message" you copied from me, actually yes, that's the whole point with this new breed of muslims, they go out their way to force others to adhere to THEIR interpretation of religion and its enforcing.
Our country is not an ultra-orthodox one, nor is our mentality, you should look eastwards for that or is your out-of-wack compass telling you we're an islamic republic ?

T'b9a 3la kheir (another one of our true moroccan expressions).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2008 03:51 by chelhman.

AssalamoAlaikom,

By the way, you addressed no form of greeting at all. It’s not my topic and I’m not interested to know why you make the exception knowing that many “yabiladien” use the same form of greeting.

Believe me friend; I’m just a simple Muslim who is trying to do his best to improve. My trip to learn has just started and I hope I’ll keep doing so as long as I can. I do‘ve principles and I try not to overstep what is considered to be logic, true and acceptable by religion or by the standard principles of what is decent and proper. Wild life is not my sweet drink. To my knowledge only animals that were created to ramp naked but not human being. To live with no precept that rules us, we better pitch a tent and move to the bush.

There’s a rule chelhman: if you accept this distinctive tendencies, enjoy the features of this modern art and defend anyone who adhere to it, so and in order for you to be logic, you need also to accept it for your sisters, wife, etc… failing this, everyone ‘ll blame and accuse you of hypocrisy and insincerity. If you swallow the rule, I don’t think you should be proud of yourself and I think you need to question yourself whether the honor is still there???

I raised this topic to discuss why don’t we tackled in our movies serious issues and challenges like jobless, illiteracy, criminality etc…without being obscene and indecent. I never said I posted to bring you to the path (ine lame yahdika ALLAH fala hadiya lake) (if ALLAH didn’t bring you to the path no one can do it)[/b]

You can call my post more than dismay as you seem to be scared and frightened of this new lightening wave coming to purify insanity and old-fashioned and irrational psychopathy. I just want to ease and comfort you, don’t be scared friend, nothing ‘ll be imposed upon you. Bars, nightclubs, casinos in Morocco are open and it‘ll be still open ‘cause the whole country is open to all inclinations and your concept of “live and let to live” w‘ll be respected.

I taught copy-paste w ‘ll make you realize your incoherence but your situation seems to be the same of “ashabe al kahf “ I wanted to point out the confusion you fell in, but you even don’t seem to understand what your own fingers typed.


Whenever I come across with some of your vocabularies I start to laugh “over-religious atmosphere, new breed of Muslims, old breed reborn, proselytism, ultra-orthodox”
you really don’t know what you are talking about and the words you are using seem to be much more complex than your imagination can conceive. You remind me of a schoolmate who always wanted to impress the teacher. When we were asked to do homework, he checked his eldest brother’s survey to take some complex and vague words to use in his essay and then impress the teacher and schoolmates. But once he read it he looked like someone talking about enjoying a drink from time to time and at the same time talking about keeping the core belief intact. Please makes me laugh more and more………

AssalamoAlaika

Quote

kamal a
Believe me friend; I’m just a simple Muslim who is trying to do his best to improve. My trip to learn has just started and I hope I’ll keep doing so as long as I can. I do‘ve principles and I try not to overstep what is considered to be logic, true and acceptable by religion or by the standard principles of what is decent and proper.

Good for you, if you found balance in a pious lifestyle, I have nothing but respect for that.

Quote

Wild life is not my sweet drink. To my knowledge only animals that were created to ramp naked but not human being. To live with no precept that rules us, we better pitch a tent and move to the bush.

Aaaand there we go...anyone not following that pious lifestyle is an animal. Do you see where the problem is now ? You have no respect whatsoever for those not following your orthodox path, the built-in feature in this mentality is contempt for others, I've seen it countless times with people like you.

Quote

There’s a rule chelhman: if you accept this distinctive tendencies, enjoy the features of this modern art and defend anyone who adhere to it, so and in order for you to be logic, you need also to accept it for your sisters, wife, etc… failing this, everyone ‘ll blame and accuse you of hypocrisy and insincerity. If you swallow the rule, I don’t think you should be proud of yourself and I think you need to question yourself whether the honor is still there???

And I follow that rule "religiously", if my sister was a performer, I'd have no problem with it. And my honor would be unharmed. I see where you going with that and that's because you despise artists, for you these dancers are whores, they can't possibly be artists. No wonder you were outraged by the movie, for you it's the equivalent of an X rated movie.

Quote

I raised this topic to discuss why don’t we tackled in our movies serious issues and challenges like jobless, illiteracy, criminality etc…without being obscene and indecent. I never said I posted to bring you to the path (ine lame yahdika ALLAH fala hadiya lake) (if ALLAH didn’t bring you to the path no one can do it)

Yes you did, your reaction wasn't a critic on the artistical merits of the movie, it was made on religious grounds, and this was your rant : What ab our religion as Muslims, does it say it’s ok to deal with such issues that way???? What ab our culture and Islamic customs??? Don’t u see we start to spoil our Islamic identity by imitating the west

Of course you dream of bringing everyone to your path, it's another built-in feature of this mentality, you think you'll get points for that in the world beyond. If you want to follow something, at least be open about it.

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You can call my post more than dismay as you seem to be scared and frightened of this new lightening wave coming to purify insanity and old-fashioned and irrational psychopathy.

Case and point. Still maintaining you're not trying to bring people to your path ?
I especially like the arrogance of the word "purify". As I often say, I never understood why you don't get along with those evangelical nuts in the US, you pretty much have the same rethoric.

Quote

Whenever I come across with some of your vocabularies I start to laugh “over-religious atmosphere, new breed of Muslims, old breed reborn, proselytism, ultra-orthodox”
you really don’t know what you are talking about and the words you are using seem to be much more complex than your imagination can conceive.

I know, bear with me, I'm not a very bright person, but you're here to enlighten and "purify" me, I'll be fine then

Quote

But once he read it he looked like someone talking about enjoying a drink from time to time and at the same time talking about keeping the core belief intact. Please makes me laugh more and more………

Glad I could make you laugh, but what exactly made you laugh ? I have an idea but let me savor your explanation.
T'halla f'rassk al oustad Kamal

AssalamoAlaikom,

If you know nothing about Islamic identity (that’s what you confessed and prove it), how can you know about the honor???
Well, unclog your ears and listen to this: honor goes side by side with reputation and reputation is the perseverance of what is considered to be pure and noble. Chelhman: the honor is the opposite of vulgarity and nudity. Today vulgarity and all its ingredients have become a common place even among so-called Muslims in the zeal of imitating the non-believers. It is these people who have been struggling to bring Muslim women out of Hijab into immodesty and indecency {like those film makers who’re undressing Muslim women or the ones who’re supporting the art of nudity and don’t care if their sisters are performers(…) or whatever, you know what I mean}. They have adopted the lifestyles of the Christians more than the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh). Such people are in a dilemma. On one hand, they do not have the courage to deny the teachings of the Holy Qur'aan and the Prophet (pbuh), (CAN YOU???). On the other hand they neither can say they have given up Islam, nor can they bear to see Muslim women wear Hijab and showing some Hayaa”shyness”.
The Prophet (pbuh) said: [Allah has cursed those women who wear clothes and still remained naked.]The prophet (pbuh)also said [I have a sense of Honour (a part of hayaa). Only a person with a darkened heart is deprived of Honour.]
This is the teaching of Islam, So can you please tell me what kind of honor that is running in the veins of your blood??? Is it related to Buddhist ideology??? Or the ones belonging to the Maori culture???

The path you claimed I’m dreaming to bring everyone to it is the path of Islam and I’m proud to be Muslim. I’m not ashamed of bearing a Muslim name nor embarrassed by my identity as some false liberals and obscenity protectors tend to do. I can bring no one to any path because “ mane yahdihi ALLAH fala moudilla laho, wamane yodlile falane tajida laho waliyane morchida” sadaka ALLAHO al adime

my friend, am’ I typing in Chinese or my simple English is too strong for you to understand??? did I say I’m the master of the new lightening wave coming to purify insanity and old-fashioned and irrational psychopathy? Only ALLAH who‘ll bring it and only ALLAH who ‘ll choose the suitable men to support and spread it. It’s not by deviating my sayings that you can shift for yourself, be more realistic and don’t show the signs of weakness and incapability to lead a fruitful discussion based on proofs. Don’t you have any “ahadith” or “sirah” of companions that support your liberal inclinaision???

Friend, you asked me to purify you. As I explained to you my trip to step up with my knowledge has just started. I don’t see I’m qualified to do it. All I can do for you is to ask ALLAH to open your heart to his lightning. ALLAH is the forgiver, ALLAH is the listener.
“”ALL PRAISE BE TO ALLAH, AND MAY HIS PEACE AND BLESSINGS BE UPON
MUHAMMAD (PBUH), HIS FAMILY, HIS COMPANIONS AND HIS TRUE FOLLOWERS UNTIL THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT.””

Take care

AssalamoAlaika

Hi Kamal a,

Reputation and honor ? So you DO consider women who practice belly dancing whores ?!
Adopting lifestyle of the Christians ? Where does the art of belly dancing come from ? I didn't know it was invented by Christians in Europe ?

Struggling to bring women out of hijab ? If you're too young to remember, the hijab didn't exist in our country before the 90's, moroccan women did not wear it. The hijab is not an islamic requirement contrary to popular belief, it has been thrusted upon muslims societies by zealots through a misinterpretation of verses 33:32-33 and 33:53.
It was seriously frowned upon up until the 80's, as it was associated with the Muslim Brotherhood. I remember an aunt who starting wearing it in those days, she provoked an outrage with the elders in the family because of its political message and had to take it out. Times do change...
Nowhere in any region of Morocco is the hijab a tradition. And again, this isn't about dressing or undressing women, we have other garments in Souss for instance (addal, l'7af) that cover far more but at least they are our tradition and I find it to be more appealing.
So yes, to answer your question, I dream of the day that ugly piece of cloth disappears from the head of my fellow citizens. We're Moroccans, not Iranians.

One last thing, can you actually do some thinking on your own ? Or do you refer to the quran and the prophet habits for every tiny little gesture you accomplish during the course of a day ?
Because, you sound to me like a soldier who follow a military manual. You do know there is knowledge outside of religion ?

As for the movie itself, there's a post open in the french section, you seem to be in the minority, everybody liked it, it's refreshing to see that Moroccans are not yet all drones
[www.yabiladi.com]

You've actually aroused my curiosity, I never heard about it before you mentioned it, now I'll make it a point to go watch the movie. Are you sure you're not actually working for Nabil Ayouch ?

Assalamoalaikom,

Chelhman: for how long I’ll be teaching you words definition, can’t you rely on yourself a bit to find out??? I’m teasing you, ready to explain to my friend.
Listen: to support, follow or adhere to nudity fashion doesn’t necessarily mean your‘re a whores. Some performers ‘re married and still faithful to their husbands. Chelhman: with respect to all readers, whores means engaging in sexual activity for money. Now I think you can realize the gap between what I said and what you wrongly concluded.
By the way, I didn’t say belly dancing was created by Christians, I said that Muslims have adopted the lifestyles of the Christians more than the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh). you ‘re very slow in understanding asahbi chelhman, maybe you need to take a cold shower whenever you decide to reply my comment.

You said in your previous comment that you don't defend lewdness and nudity and now you admit clearly that you dream of the day that ugly piece of cloth disappears from the head of your fellow citizens. aren't you by any chance a psychopath or schizophrenic nevertheless your sect, religion or culture that you sympathize or adhere to it?

In Islam there's a good guidance chelhman, a lightening path. Quran and Sunnah are my perfect sourcing as the [[u]color=#FF0000]“culture of having a drink from time to time”[/color][/u] is your rootage. So please don't envy me for opting this path, be tolerant and respect my choice. Live your life and let me live mine: D

Friend: in this forum there ‘re many non-Muslim visitors. Some just read others comment and post. This doesn’t mean there ‘re no Muslim who admire the movie and i 've nothing against them unless they don't tarnish and sabotage Islam like you do. By the way, I’ve nothing against you as well, what I’m doing is to defend the principles of my religion your trying by hook or crook to tarnish, sabotage and derail it’s noble teaching…

i already aroused your curiosity to show hostility to this religion of Islam and salam. Carry on, play the striker and keep scoring against your net…. when time is over, you won’t be able to persuade the referee to extend extra time for you. It’s unfair as there are rules to be respected.

Regarding hijab, in the other post kutchia and Islah “tbarkallah alihom” were very much explicit to reply efficiently to your attack for hijab.

Have a nice day

AssalamoAlaika

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kamal a
Listen: to support, follow or adhere to nudity fashion doesn’t necessarily mean your‘re a whores. Some performers ‘re married and still faithful to their husbands. Chelhman: with respect to all readers, whores means engaging in sexual activity for money. Now I think you can realize the gap between what I said and what you wrongly concluded.

You did speak of honor and reputation, so it means that you consider belly dancing to bring a bad reputation to the person dancing and to their relatives. Let me quote you : If you swallow the rule, I don’t think you should be proud of yourself and I think you need to question yourself whether the honor is still there???.

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You said in your previous comment that you don't defend lewdness and nudity and now you admit clearly that you dream of the day that ugly piece of cloth disappears from the head of your fellow citizens. aren't you by any chance a psychopath or schizophrenic nevertheless your sect, religion or culture that you sympathize or adhere to it?

Read carefully, my issue is with the hijab in its current form as in the other post. Kinda tired of repeating myself because you guys don't read.
But wait a minute, let's say for a second I did say that : so, for you, if a woman uncovers her hair, it is "lewdness and nudity" ? The scary thought here is, what would happen to women if people like you actually took power in our country...