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منتدى المغرب و المغاربة حول العالم

Hamas decided today to end the eight-month government to bring back the international assistance that was cut off after it won national elections earlier this year.
If this is what is taking place, and that the international community is forcing a democratically elected body to resign, then I believe that the notion of democracy for all is not really true, and the will of people, Europe always talks about is nothing but a myth. Starving a whole nation because they choose different leaders than what others want is likely to make many think that the west really picks and chooses when it come to democracy and the meaning of the will of people.
I know, Hamas, is perceived by some as a terrorist group, but I also know that a majority of Palestinians trust them with their future.
Now that Ismail Haniyya is leaving the government, we’ll see if the international community is going to help them, and mostly, let’s see if the world will protect them.
I still don’t understand why we can send UN forces to uphold the law everywhere in the world but in Palestine?
Peace,


here's an article in NYT today:
[www.nytimes.com]

It means that innocent lives have been wasted for Hamas and its supporters to understand that they need to be looking for peace and not for exacerbating tensions. that is all it means, now I want this clown to go apologize to the families who lost their beloved ones for... nothing! so that he could retire behind his ideology.

That goes both ways by the way, the other clowns on the other side need to go apologize to the jewish families too to have sent their kids to fight in Lebanon killing scores of civilians for pretty much no valid reason. Until now, their 2 soldiers are still in Hezbollah's hands.

Total outcome on both sides = 0.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2006 12:50 by zaki7.

I haven’t read too many of your posts to see which way you incline, but I can say this, you are either a Jew or just trying to get the discussion heated by saying what ever.
But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt .
1)hamass came there by a legitimate way, elected by the majority of the people that got tired of fatah party that all it like to do is travel to different countries in very expensive plans and stay and the expensive hotels and keep negotiating for the seek of negotiating.
2) Hamas is the one to blame for the Palestinians death by the Israeli army? do I smell the USA and Israeli response for every Palestinians massacre ?

Lebanon have nothing to do here unless you want to open a new thread, then we can discuss it.

Yeah you probably should read more.

No I am not a jew and if I was a jew I'll be fine with that too and you don't need me to get heat into this debate, it's already heated enough, since 50 years now...

1) Fine, they got elected democratically, they had power, nothing changed, things worsened instead, they failed. Not recognizing Israel is not a foreign policy plan, it's ignoring the problem and hoping it will resolve itself by magic.

2) Hamas is the one to blame for non-pragmatism that lead to innocent deaths yes, when you send a kid to die for a "cause", the least you'd expect from the leader is to stick to those principles. What M. Haniyeh is doing by saying "ok I quit" is the proof that he and his party are just using innocent civilians for political gain.

3) Israel is not better, their extremist are using pretyt much every little excuse to kill innocent civilians, my point is that both extremists are to blame, they alwas been and always will. You don't have to agree with me, I assume what I say.


Lebanon has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Excuse me I must have missed something here, may be we should ask the lebanese about that?

salam alaykum


zaki7

r u talking seriously how HAMAS can finish its mandate and the whole world are boycotting them, making all kind of pressure, punishing the whole population for their choice for to bring down HAMAS on their knees la hawla wa lkouta ila be Allah where is the democracy are you talking about.i just could not understand you it is beyond my capacity intellectual .

Lebanon should not have anything to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But many Palestinian refugees went to Lebanon, and at one time South Lebanon was known as Fatahland. That was the reason why Israel invaded the country (before 2000).

The Hezbollah that has replaced the armed Palestinians is a purely Lebanese militia but its aim is not only to defend Lebanon but to contribute to the liberation of al-Qods.


As of the Hamas government it is not because it has been democratically elected that it can deny to another country its right to exist. That is contrary to international law.

The American government has been democratically elected. Did that give it the right to occupy Iraq?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2006 08:40 by Cyril.

Quote
sarah70
salam alaykum
la hawla wa lkouta ila be Allah

You better not invite Allah in the Palestinian conflict. Some people are wondering why with all his strength and power he does not intervene to help oppressed Muslims.

Democracy is a nice concept and works fine when electors are in a position to make a rational choice.

Note :
For the sake of the debate, we all know what Israel did, we all know Israel is at fault in squizzing the Palestinians and pushing them to the brink of collapse. I'm looking at things through the prism of a neutral, objective and rational eye. So please let's keep the jew bashing whining at the door.


The argument we keep hearing about the fact that Hamas was brought through an election is irrelevant here. An election held a gun point, or missile point in this case, is not a true testimony of people's will.
Desperates situations give desperate elections.
Let's take a closer look at Hamas and its philosophy :
this is an organisation basing their struggle on religion, they've made no secret of their intention of installing an islamic republic.
Now, that's forgetting there's a million or so christian Palestinians, I'm not sure they relish the idea of living under a radical islamic government.
I've said this already on the forum next door, but if we rewind a little bit to the time of the Oslo accord, Hamas, back then, swore it would do everything in its power to undermine those accords, and they did just that.
A series of suicide bombing brought down the Barak government and ushered in the unforgetable Netanyahu who pretty much destroyed any hope of peace.
The Likud policies fed the anger and misery upon which Hamas flourished.
Voices of reason were shut up, Arafat, Ashrawi and others were inaudible among the brouhaha of the suicide bombings and the retaliatory missile strikes. So the crazy, bloody, vicious circle of violence went on until Arafat died and there was an "election" which brought in....Hamas.

Now,... does that seem to you like a rational choice ?
Do you seriously believe that a Palestinian brought to a level of utter despair by Israeli policies backed indirectly by 15 years of suicide bombings of Hamas triggering an endless cycle of retaliatory strikes, do you believe that that Palestinian voter made a rational, visionary choice ?

It would be like having an election held on the sept 13th 2001 in the US, what would have been the result ? Imagine that and you would be nowhere near what a Palestinian mindset looked like at that election.

As far as I'm concerned Hamas and the hawks in Tel Aviv are both culprits in the mess following the Oslo accord, one was feeding the other's hatred and the Palestinians were paying the price.

Hamas is feeding a morbid cult of death. As I said before, everytime Hamas launched a suicide attack, the retaliation magnitude from Israel was tenfold. So, if you're a leader whose main goal in life is the welfare of your people, shouldn't you avoid tactics that kill more within your ranks than the enemy's ?

This conflict has nothing to do with islam, it's a territorial, colonial war, Hamas is using islam to justify their actions. Again, there are about one million christian Palestinians, what do we do with them ? Arafat made sure to pray in Bethleem every christmas (until Israel decided to hinder that as well), he was a secular.
Do you believe a Hamas leader would have gone to Bethleem to pray, to honor the christians like his predecessor ?

Take religion out of this equation, especially ours and it becomes far simpler to think about.
Ok, now you can start hammering at me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2006 03:02 by chelhman.

Chelhman

I don't know to whom your post is directed at but I must say that I have seldom read on a forum such a sensible post as yours.


I can only agree with you that Hamas was elected out of despair. For that reason I think the Western nations that feed the Palestinians should resume their task and not wait until there is a change in government.

They have sent the message about how international rule works (I mean only the rule about recognizing a UN member) and now they should forget that the Palestinian government is headed by Hamas.

chalhman,
Where did you see me bashing Jews? So now we can't even predict or assume someone is a Jews or not? Humm!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2006 01:23 by baba123.

baba123, well, asking someone if he's a jew in a debate is not exactly fair game or sort of steers the debate to a lower level.
But if it's not the case, then my apologies if I jumped the gun too fast.
I'm a little tired of the "us and them" debating style.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2006 01:32 by chelhman.

Salam alaykum wa rahmatou Allahi
wa barakatouhu



I strongly don t believe that there is a neutral viewpoint, politic, debate now a day (please don t tell me there are people who see thing from logical, self critic side …) just we need to look around to understand what I mean here. and if most Moroccans (who are born and raised in Morocco) are pro-Palestinians not only from human right base but also for our common history, culture and commitment .

I bring to everyone attention it is not fair to relate Jews in general with Israel state ,it just doesn’t t make sense to me ,because there are many Jews against the Israeli politics as there are many no Jewish that are pro-Israel more then the Israeli.

Chelhman

I appreciate your contribution on this forum and I am so grateful for that , I see how many times during the 24/7 you are posting , as long as u don t do it during your company business hours unless you are paid for for that (lol just kidding.

Quote

sarah70
Chelhman
I appreciate your contribution on this forum and I am so grateful for that , I see how many times during the 24/7 you are posting , as long as u don t do it during your company business hours unless you are paid for for that (lol just kidding.

My job involves working with a computer all the time, so I check on Yabi on a regular basis. It's addictive

I believe it was naïve for Hamas to think that it could survive the world pressure to recognize Israel upon its election. You simply can’t fight a force that feeds you and pay your salaries. But they were certainly the actions of Israel that made so many Palestinians so desperate and so fueled with hatred they moved all the way to Hamas instead of staying behind Fatah and Abbass. I’m by the way not a fan of either one, one seems too radical and too religious I wouldn’t want it to run a country if I were living in it, and another too corrupt and forever too weak to gain any concessions that we can remember from Israel.
Palestinians are in my view the victims of an international community that for many reasons just doesn’t want to solve this problem because they know they will hurt some friends, and also victim of a corrupt and weak UN that knows what the solution and boundaries are but refuses to go and enforce them.
I just thought about something else in this regard that gave me just a little pause, isn’t it a shame that Palestinians can literally starve if not fed through European donations while many Arab countries are richer than those countries? Can’t Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Algeria and others do that?
An Arab poet once said in what is truly beautiful and famous line:
Biladi wa in jaarat alayya azzizatoune***wa ahli wa in dannou alayya kiraamo
ÈáÇÏí æÇä ÌÇÑÊ Úáí ÚÒíÒÉ***æÇåáí æÇä Öäæ Úáí ßÑÇã
I just don’t see many Palestinians agree with him today, and sorry for those amongst us who can't read Arabic.

Yes I am very serious. What you're saying, many of us have been saying here when Hamas was first elected and that is that they don't have any chance on earth to advance on a resolution of this conflict by refusing to recognize and talk to the other side. It was just a matter of time before they would throw the towel. What this region needs is real politik, not victimization, not fighting, not extremists and most of all no false promises, and I say that on both sides, whether it's the Netanyahu crowd or the Haniyeh crowd. When they'll pack up and leave, this region will have a shot at peace. When Hamas leader gets elected by saying that his goal is the destruction of the state of Israel, he is basically telling his people, vote for me and we'll all dream together.

Let me ask you a question: do you realistically believe that Israel or Palestine will be wiped out of the map someday?

Quote
sarah70
salam alaykum


zaki7

r u talking seriously how HAMAS can finish its mandate and the whole world are boycotting them, making all kind of pressure, punishing the whole population for their choice for to bring down HAMAS on their knees la hawla wa lkouta ila be Allah where is the democracy are you talking about.i just could not understand you it is beyond my capacity intellectual .

salam alaykum

zaki7

Whoever thinks to map out Israel in the upcoming 50 or even 100 years he is just hallucinating (after that I don t have any idea on how the world balance will changed, I will not be here anyway Allah aalam I will be somewhere submitting my reports on what I spend my life and what I am posting in this forum lol hehehhehe ), but the funny thing how we can map out a country that it still is under occupation?

chalhman you are right on the money
Just a mater of a time before we wipe out all Palestinians terrorist, hamas will bow to our power sooner or leader. They make suicide bombers we make intelligent missiles. LOL

Wow wow wow, wait a minute here, I thing you misunderstood and mischaracterized what chelhman is saying. You’re reply is very insulting, but I’ll let chelhman reply to it since you quoted his post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2006 11:25 by Almot.

Why is it insulting? Don’t you think theses Muslim terrorist should go down soon before making more troubles?
I think few people here make sense one of them is Shalhman

salam alaykum

Almot

Quote
Wow wow wow, wait a minute here, I thing you misunderstood and mischaracterized what chelhman is saying. You’re reply is very insulting, but I’ll let chelhman reply to it since you quoted his post.

why r YOU surprised ?what chelhmen is posting is going into one derection .

Israelnumber1 welcome on our forum there is a place just next to chelhman, i remember chelhman saying that one day to one of person in this forum.

Quote

Israelnumber1
chalhman you are right on the money
Just a mater of a time before we wipe out all Palestinians terrorist, hamas will bow to our power sooner or leader. They make suicide bombers we make intelligent missiles. LOL

Are you high on something ? You misconstrued what I said, I'm talking about reasonable peace, not wiping out anyone. There's been enough "wiping out" for the last 30 years, that's what got the Israelis and the Palestinians in this mess in the first place.


I'm simply analysing the situation with the benefit of being an outsider. If you're indeed an israeli, you should know by now that sooner or later you are going to have to live as neighbours with the Palestinians, the logical and sound decision is to start now. The best way on your side is to silence your likudist hawks.
Each year that passes, each missile strike, makes future cohabitation harder.


One last thing, look at the bottom line, this 50 year feud is costing you an arm and a leg, you're not doing that well economically speaking, the number of people on social welfare is staggering.
So peace might be good for business.

Sarah70, you should read me and think before jumping to conclusions.

No Sarah,
I respectfully disagree with you. I never saw in chelhman's interventions any of what you imply. I would agree if some accuse him of been open minded, I could even take little of "very" open minded at times, even though I don’t agree, and I know that chelhman won't take this against me, but never someone who would side with the views of the likes of Israelnumber1. In many of his posts, I actually can feel the pain he feels for the Arab cause and identity and for the systems that never works, just like you and me.

Now to Israelnumber1 who said:
“Why is it insulting? Don’t you think theses Muslim terrorist should go down soon before making more troubles?

Well, welcome to the forum Israelnumber1, I hope your intention here is to engage in real debate and not to just insult and plant seeds of discord and hatred. I care less really if you were a Muslim or a Jew, I actually like it if you were a Moroccan Jew, then you're in your family, and because that means we are an inclusive group of people. Moroccans Jews, Christians or Muslims are the same. But I want to ask you who are the Muslim terrorists you talk about who should go down as you said? Because if you are talking about real terrorists, then we have to name them, and Arabs and Israelis alike have their share of that, but if you call the people who were slaughtered last week in beit Hanoune terrorists, or if you call the 1100 who were blown in south Lebanon terrorists, or if you do for the women here:[www.lemonde.fr]
Then, my friend, you have to do some more research.
As you can see, our views on this forum are so different, but we always respect each other, that’s what makes this forum very special.
Let’s keep it civilized,
Peace,



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2006 03:50 by Almot.

chalhman
"I'm simply analysing the situation with the benefit of being an outsider. If you're indeed an israeli, you should know by now that sooner or later you are going to have to live as neighbours with the Palestinians, the logical and sound decision is to start now. The best way on your side is to silence your likudist hawks.
Each year that passes, each missile strike, makes future cohabitation harder.


One last thing, look at the bottom line, this 50 year feud is costing you an arm and a leg, you're not doing that well economically speaking, the number of people on social welfare is staggering.
So peace might be good for business.[/quote]

Look! Read all the news and the comments by world leaders and you will see that Palestine will not exist on the west bank, Gaza is the only city that will house the entire Islamic terrorist. So they will be next to Egypt and not us, a buffer zone will be created on west bank.
For the last 50 years we tried to be civilized but obviously it didn’t work, so now the policy is, they kill one we kill ~50 they bark at use we injure ~20 and so on a so forth by the end of the century we will bring them to there knees.
A questions, have anyone seen us killing any Christians? they don’t bother us we don’t bother them.
Shalom

chlahman,
Look! Read all the news and the comments by world leaders and you will see that Palestine will not exist on the west bank, Gaza is the only city that will house the entire Islamic terrorist. So they will be next to Egypt and not us, a buffer zone will be created on west bank.
For the last 50 years we tried to be civilized but obviously it didn’t work, so now the policy is, they kill one we kill ~50 they bark at use we injure ~20 and so on a so forth by the end of the century we will bring them to there knees.
A questions, have anyone seen us killing any Christians? they don’t bother us we don’t bother them.
Shalom

Quote
Israelnumber1
so now the policy is, they kill one we kill ~50 they bark at use we injure ~20 and so on a so forth

I think that has always been the Israeli policy, not only now and not only from now on.

We all know how Hamas was brought to power, another great accident that let me to believe that arab muslim current history will be made of only accidents ( the future then is easy to foresee ).

Hamas was not the solution for Palestenians, it was the less worse available option.

Great job ( as hezbollah doing ) when it comes to being close to the needies, but no maturity to run a country.

The region need intelligence to extricate from the prevailing chaos.

to risk destroying a country by taking a soldier as hostage is an irresponsible madness

Quote
chelhman
baba123, well, asking someone if he's a jew in a debate is not exactly fair game or sort of steers the debate to a lower level.
But if it's not the case, then my apologies if I jumped the gun too fast.
I'm a little tired of the "us and them" debating style.

Chelhman,
No worries we all make mistakes,
Just an FYI, I had a very good friend in High school from a Jewish family,
When I said hamas was elected legitimately, I really don’t car why it was elected from desperation or just a choice.
1) For the hamas philosophies, if it is not based on the religion? You think based on ethnicity will be better? Humm let me see , what did the Arabism did for us? Give oil for free to usa and Israel and fight each other for really stupid reasons.if it wasn’t to religion you think France would ever left morocco?
2) million of Christians? How did you come up with that figure? 100’s now become millions? And just to let you know there voice is heard load and clear more then the Muslims anyway, no worries about them.
3) do you know what is Oslo accord ? Have 2 different areas and to go between the 2 parts you need to go through Israeli check point, is this a Palestinian state that people will look for?
4) You think Israel need a reason to attack Palestinians? Why some of us have a short memory loss, remember when Arabs declared in Beirut that will accept Israel on 67 border, what was the response of the Israeli army that same day?
Wasn’t fiches massacre to the Palestinians?
5) What welfare of your people are you talking about?
Can any one in the Palestinians “Gov” under the occupation assure the safety of any Palestinian including them selves?
6) Last if you think that is ok to live under occupation and try to please them to keep the occupier from killing and distressing the population, you wouldn’t be the first to think that way, but you are not the first to be wrong, no occupier ever left it colony with just negotiation.

Quote

Israelnumber1
chlahman,
Look! Read all the news and the comments by world leaders and you will see that Palestine will not exist on the west bank, Gaza is the only city that will house the entire Islamic terrorist. So they will be next to Egypt and not us, a buffer zone will be created on west bank.
For the last 50 years we tried to be civilized but obviously it didn’t work, so now the policy is, they kill one we kill ~50 they bark at use we injure ~20 and so on a so forth by the end of the century we will bring them to there knees.
A questions, have anyone seen us killing any Christians? they don’t bother us we don’t bother them. Shalom

I see now where you stand. Your reasoning is no better than Hamas'.
Civilized ? Israel past governments with no exception, be it labour or likud, have been eroding palestinian territories by allowing colonies. By the way, you may call them "settlements" to make the international community unconscienciously swallow the pill, but grabbing lands that already belong to someone is called "colonization" not "settlement".

Hamas does not represent the Palestinians, it's just an expression of their psyche, anger and despair. Desperate people always fall for the most simplistic, idiotic slogan. Hamas does just that.

Clever the way you're using my statements on the christianity of some palestinians to pretend that your problem is only with islamists. Who do you think you're talking to ? Somehow, reading you, that's not what your writings exude, you seem as radical as the islamists themselves.

There's no way out of this one except through negotiations, Hamas is a monster created out of the twisted thinking that you could colonize your way out of this.
It's not possible, the past governments tried, they failed. Itzhak Rabin understood that, that's why he opened a dialogue.
Use your head, the Palestinians aren't going anywhere, a smart and visionary government would digest that info and act accordingly.
The politics of the suicide bombings/retaliation cycle has failed miserably, it's in everybody's interest to talk.

This is the 21st century, disputes cannot be settled through war any longer. Look at Irak, has the war solved anything or has it made things worse ?

Speaking of war, there's another one brewing because of your hawks, yesterday I was watching the BBC, Netanyahu (again !) was advocating the idea to hit Iran's nuclear facilities. If you don't put a leash on people like him on the next elections, Hamas is going to be the least of your problems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2006 05:07 by chelhman.