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Creationism on the offensive
chelhman [ PM ]
24 November 2007 12:37
Interesting essay on the creationist's offensive in the US : [www.commondreams.org]

Some excerpts for the lazies who won't read the entire article :Smiling Smiley

"Basically, if the scientist says “we don’t know,” the advocates for intelligent design declare that God is responsible."

"Some weeks ago Osama bin Laden preached that the American people should all convert to Islam. Bill O’Reilly preached First Amendment rights with regard to teaching creationism in the classroom. The Earth must be flat indeed."

"How does this “separation of church and state” idea work ? What does it really mean to our liberty ? What does it mean for our students ? School curricula must be focused on the world, how it works and does not work. Students should be practicing how to solve problems. And they must learn to debate the issues. But to do so, they require an education based on a solid foundation of facts."
xylophene [ PM ]
27 November 2007 08:34
the third century will or will not be religious.
It's not a question.
chelhman [ PM ]
27 November 2007 10:57
Quote

xylophene
the third century will or will not be religious.
It's not a question.

Maybe so, but somehow I get the feeling intellectual and philosophical human development are slowly grinding to a halt. The previous generations seem to have been lucky, maybe necessity and misery played a major part, we are already faced with a generation of infantilized consumers and it seems religion has also become a pre-packaged product bereft of anything remotely spiritual, reasoning and free-thinking are no longer, binary pavlovian reactions rule and comes down to "us", the righteous, and "them", everyone else.
Creationism is a way to ensure docile and obedient next generations, people who will react to proper stimuli, unable to think beyond their given or perceived identity. Reading some comments on this forum sometimes tells me the process has already begun.
wardamaroc30 [ PM ]
27 November 2007 11:43
exactly chelhman,
that what i noticed , a lot of people with some strange mentalities , in any debate or topic they turn into preachers , the chosen ones who know better about religion , it is just them who will go to paradise , it is just them who know the truth, the rest , they are just poor ignorant people , brainwashed by the europeans and influenced by other cultures
one thing that everyone need to be aware of , that the forums and the internet became the perfect place for a lot of political partis , in this forum in particular there are a lot preachers from the pjd, these islamistes distribute free laptops and computers on their membres and they have teams of young beardies who spend 24 hours inventing rumours , criticising everything , they receive monthly salaries to post and publicise for their agendas , articles from newspapers owned by beardies are posted on a daily basis in all forums , these people hide under sweet religious words but in fact their goal is political 100%
they are taking advantage of pauverty in Morocco , and ignorance
the other other i was chocked to read some people playing with fire encouraging violance against tourists in Morocco
planting hateress between the moroccans , some people demanding to have islamic policee with the power to arrest any woman without a black cloth on top of her head , to kick all tourist out , to force a dress code on all men and women and the hilarious bit is to close all banks and use just an islamic bank ClapClapsome people dream of a state like iran and they do anything to make their sad dream come true
some people in this forum applauding violance and they justify it since it is in the name of religion it is a goodClap thing
i think most of these lunatics are mentally sick sexually furstrated whith nothing to do a part from trying to toxicate people s way of thinking
an an other important point , these propagandas in the forums lead by beardies it is started since some sheikh some holy beardy based in cairo , said : some sort of of fatwa : the internet jihad has the same value as other types of jihad , some sort of evolution to the definition of this word which is used very often by any one nowadays , so when these people preach and express their hateress they beleive deep inside they are scoring hassanates , and they will be rewarded the 7o virgins like any other mojahid in a battle field Moody Smileya punch of psychos living in their little cocoons (tm)EvilEvil
chelhman [ PM ]
27 November 2007 16:10
Wardamaroc30, free laptops ? Really ? Might be worth growing a beard for a while ? Facial hair doesn't affect the brain, does
it ?Smiling Smiley
What else are they giving out for free ? If they throw in the last 4x4 Volvo, I might even consider a lobotomy...although I wonder if I'll still be able to drive my Volvo ?...
Naah, I'll be fine, I see these morons driving cars all the time.Smiling Smiley
wardamaroc30 [ PM ]
27 November 2007 19:29
yeah , i think i will buy some false beard too and disguise as a beardy may be i get a new laptop too, mine is getting a bit oldspinning smiley sticking its tongue out

they also give free ticket to go to haj , Clapa lot of moroccan went to haj free this year , i understand now why more and more people are growing those smelly beards , it s worth money and freebies Evil materialists morons shame on themWinking smiley
Krim [ PM ]
28 November 2007 13:13
Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah Alllah Allah Allah Allah Allah AlllahAlllah Allah Allah Allah



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2007 01:15 by Krim.
chelhman [ PM ]
28 November 2007 13:24
Good for you Krim, you get a free laptop, a free SUV and a free trip to the HajSmiling Smiley
Kutchia [ PM ]
28 November 2007 14:12
And you get a free ticket to hell Winking smileyEvil
wardamaroc30 [ PM ]
28 November 2007 14:34
how you know he will get a free ticket to hell don t you think you allow yourself to interfer in god s decision, this is a sin so may be you got the ticket already booked to hell who knows!!!!ohhhh my be the beard will save you ,
Krim are you imagining yourself in one of those videos declaring jihad and cutting people s throat EvilEvilEvil keep rehearsling ClapClapMDRyou still need a bit practice !!!!PerplexeGrinning smileyWinking smiley
Kutchia [ PM ]
28 November 2007 15:46
lol you are so beard fixaded, how come, are you jealous because your beard dosn't grow as fast as you wish?
Btw my source regarding the free ticket to hell is the same as the one that gave you these information:
Quote
wardamaroc30
there are a lot preachers from the pjd, these islamistes distribute free laptops and computers on their membres and they have teams of young beardies who spend 24 hours inventing rumours , criticising everything , they receive monthly salaries to post and publicise for their agendasWinking smiley
You are not an inch better than those people you criticize. Actually you are more full of hatred than the extrmist that blows them self up. At least we get rid of them automaticly.
And no I am not a fundamatalist or grow a beard and I am not an atheist either- I just don't like extremist that spread hate seech like your self, your friend Mr Bush and his ally mr Osama.

You are now officaily on my ignore list.
Krim [ PM ]
28 November 2007 15:56
I love to repeat the name of God.Do you have any problem with it?If you look at the statistic
Allah is the most repeated word on Earth.
Allah Iounack
Allah Smahlak
Allah Yihdik
Allah Kbir
Try to analyse your own flow of words, and you will find out. Are you killing anybody ?

Allah Ghaleb.

Thanks Chelhman you got the message.
wardamaroc30 [ PM ]
28 November 2007 16:26
bravooooClaphere we go the broken cd has started , typical beardies cultures , accusing others and doubting their faith , if you have so much hatress to bush and to the americans why you live in their country then? the caves of aghabnistan are more suitable for that sort of mentality
Clapwhat a contradiction , pure hypocrisie , hating their culture but please give me a green card !!!!!


mr Krim , i think you misleading things hear , you interpret other people s words in a very narrow minded way , you are abusing the word allah by quoting it everywhere ,
do you communicate just with this word even at work , i bet they will fire you instantly when you answer the phone instead of saying helLo you say ALLAHX1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
no one is against the word alLah as you ae trying to manipulate ,DROP THE MASK PLS bAND HAVE a little respect when and where you use this word ,i am curious if someone asked you what time iIT IS t now ; do you answer IN A HESTERICAL WAY : ALAH , ALLAH , ALLAH X1000000000000 DEFINITELY MENTAL ISSUES spinning smiley sticking its tongue out
THATS CALLED ABUSE OF A HOLY WORD , R-E-S-P-E-S-C-T, allah ya3fou a3lik (tm)
chelhman [ PM ]
28 November 2007 16:43
Hi Krim,

I think the fact that "Allah" is used in our darija is more cultural than religious, it is often a form of politeness, that's the way we ask for something, the way we say thanks, the way we begin a meal, it's not really a form of religion expression. I mean, you don't think of Allah when you ask for something and "llah y khelik..." to a public servant in any given administration for instance.
It just so happens that arabic, one of the ingredient in our darija, uses the name of Allah a lot.

That's why I always say that islam in Morocco is cultural but does not necessarily reflect of form of piety.
I've seen people pour themselves a Heineken and say "bismillah" before drinking the first sip, that's Morocco for you ! A land of contradictions and we love it for precisely that.
Krim [ PM ]
28 November 2007 17:35
Quote
wardamaroc30
bravooooClaphere we go the broken cd has started , typical beardies cultures , accusing others and doubting their faith , if you have so much hatress to bush and to the americans why you live in their country then? the caves of aghabnistan are more suitable for that sort of mentality
Clapwhat a contradiction , pure hypocrisie , hating their culture but please give me a green card !!!!!


mr Krim , i think you misleading things hear , you interpret other people s words in a very narrow minded way , you are abusing the word allah by quoting it everywhere ,
do you communicate just with this word even at work , i bet they will fire you instantly when you answer the phone instead of saying helLo you say ALLAHX1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
no one is against the word alLah as you ae trying to manipulate ,DROP THE MASK PLS bAND HAVE a little respect when and where you use this word ,i am curious if someone asked you what time iIT IS t now ; do you answer IN A HESTERICAL WAY : ALAH , ALLAH , ALLAH X1000000000000 DEFINITELY MENTAL ISSUES spinning smiley sticking its tongue out
THATS CALLED ABUSE OF A HOLY WORD , R-E-S-P-E-S-C-T, allah ya3fou a3lik (tm)

I have no comments for you.You are right. What a smart ...!
Krim [ PM ]
28 November 2007 17:57
Quote
chelhman
Hi Krim,

I think the fact that "Allah" is used in our darija is more cultural than religious, it is often a form of politeness, that's the way we ask for something, the way we say thanks, the way we begin a meal, it's not really a form of religion expression. I mean, you don't think of Allah when you ask for something and "llah y khelik..." to a public servant in any given administration for instance.
It just so happens that arabic, one of the ingredient in our darija, uses the name of Allah a lot.

That's why I always say that islam in Morocco is cultural but does not necessarily reflect of form of piety.
I've seen people pour themselves a Heineken and say "bismillah" before drinking the first sip, that's Morocco for you ! A land of contradictions and we love it for precisely that.

Dear Chelhman
Please I grew up in Morocco and I know what you mean. However if we really try to understand the gap between talking and doing, then we do find real problems. You hear a lot of nice words and prayers and at the end the job is not done.Then you start asking yourself is it politness or Hypocrysi( NNiffagh)? I do not want to go into details but at the end you come to the conclusion that you are dealing with perrots and not normal people who really understand and rerspect the meaning of words.
I am sûre you had the chance to hear critics about our people who talk to much and do nothing.At the end you may hear Allah ma braaaach. Allah is responsable.........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2007 05:58 by Krim.
LeMask [ PM ]
1 December 2007 19:00
come on guys...
stay focused for a moment.

creationism? what the hell is this? ... let me tell you one thing. if you see someone who is telling that he got all the answers... punch him in the face for me, please.

and this works for the religious people TOO...

the problem, is that we lost faith in science. science, is now a tool to backup political groups and such...
when I scientists wasting their time to prove that god is like Santa, i lose faith in their value...

people have nothing against science, but they have A LOT against the people who try to lie to their kids.

i'm not a person full of knowledge, but i know enough to tell you that the scientists need god and his magic powers. because they cant explain how life appeared on earth.

do you guys understand what "life" is? I give you stones, water, metal, radiations, sun, heat, energy and 50 billion years and you wont be able to create life.

so, right now, It's easier to believe a religious man telling me that god made life in heaven, and sent it to earth than to believe a scientist telling me that some rocks turned into a living creature...
chelhman [ PM ]
2 December 2007 16:05
LeMask, you've seriously matured in your writings, you're actually starting to make sense, congrats !Smiling Smiley
Getting back to what you've said in last sentence :

Quote

so, right now, It's easier to believe a religious man telling me that god made life in heaven, and sent it to earth than to believe a scientist telling me that some rocks turned into a living creature...

We're back to the notion we've discussed a few months ago, i.e belief and knowledge are two different things, religion is about belief, science is about knowledge, creationism tries, wrongly so, to merge those two.
That's why it is fundamentally fallacious.
Your sentence adds something else : belief is then the antechamber of knowledge, "I believe until I can know", and as you've said, it is "easier".
The problem starts when religious dogma precludes the quest for knowledge because it might diminish its grip on people's minds. Creationism is all about that : preventing knowledge to provoke an awakening, it's nothing more than a dumbing down of the population to preserve the power of religious institutions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2007 05:08 by chelhman.
LeMask [ PM ]
2 December 2007 16:47
come on chelhman...
my opinion is still the same...

and I dont know for sure. belief as antichamber of knowledge? i dont know about that, but it's a nice way to see things...

but let me give you other views, pretty close ones too.

here is one:
what if religion (or belief) was some kind of super science... things we CANNOT explain. above the limits of our intelligence.

when you say "antichamber" it seems like a primitive step toward knowledge. but what if it was a FINAL stage of science. or further?
chelhman [ PM ]
2 December 2007 17:01
Hello again LeMask,

To answer your question : no, not a primitive step towards knowledge, more like a waiting room, which is the definition of "antechamber".
People can't cope with uncertainty, religion is all about certainty, it provides answers, absolutes, truths. Science is about doubt, doubt is the engine that drives research, we're not sure so we keep looking and experimenting. In the meantime, religious dogma gives the comfort of certainty.
Remember the Earth was flat, the Sun revolved around it, then came the works of Copernicus and Galileo, these are perfect examples to illustrate the antechamber concept.
Remember also that the Church did everything it could to prevent that knowledge because once again it hindered their grip over people's minds.
So yes, for some people it is intellectually comfortable to believe, because it doesn't require reasoning, therefore triggering...doubt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2007 07:57 by chelhman.
adds [ PM ]
2 December 2007 17:34
Islam is the only religion that is scientific; Ben Ladden is no a prophet but he can see into the cristal ball CIA has given him.
\\\///
Adidas in Sport wear best
LeMask [ PM ]
2 December 2007 18:12
chelhman, i can agree with that.

but it's just that I would put religion after knowledge.
in the image of the "antechamber", the antechamber is the little room, before the REAL room.

I just switch the positions, I think that science is the antechamber of religion.

but it's not important. just an image...

and for me, church is a bad example, the church was a joke. just a tool to abuse the people. a bit like some states in our world today.
somekind of bunch of criminals... of course, some of them really believed in their lies... but anyway...
Arhal [ PM ]
2 December 2007 19:48
Quote
wardamaroc30
how you know he will get a free ticket to hell don t you think you allow yourself to interfer in god s decision, this is a sin so may be you got the ticket already booked to hell who knows!!!!ohhhh my be the beard will save you ,
Krim are you imagining yourself in one of those videos declaring jihad and cutting people s throat EvilEvilEvil keep rehearsling ClapClapMDRyou still need a bit practice !!!!PerplexeGrinning smileyWinking smiley

The renowned preacher Kishk said in one of his famous tapes: Allthe singers have a seat in Hell except Um Kalthoum...She will have two seats!!!!ama min d

Who told our happy preacher that Um Kalthoum befor she dies that year fasted Ramadan Imanan wa Htisaban wa ghoufira laha ma taqddama min danbiha wa ma ta'akhara....
chelhman [ PM ]
3 December 2007 10:33
Quote

LeMask
chelhman, i can agree with that.
but it's just that I would put religion after knowledge.
in the image of the "antechamber", the antechamber is the little room, before the REAL room.
I just switch the positions, I think that science is the antechamber of religion.
but it's not important. just an image...
and for me, church is a bad example, the church was a joke. just a tool to abuse the people. a bit like some states in our world today.
somekind of bunch of criminals... of course, some of them really believed in their lies... but anyway...

Religion after knowledge ?
What you're saying is that science serves to prove your beliefs, or did I get that wrong ?
Maybe that's the fundamental mistake, these are two different concepts, one is about faith, the other is about facts, one is irrational, the other is rational...etc
They are two incompatible fields and serve different purposes in life.

Take some time and think about this : you take the same stance as a creationist, you're trying to justify or validate your beliefs through science.
As for the Church, Islam doesn't have a clergy per say but we do have oulemas, and they do as much damage with insane fatwas for the same basic reason : power over people's minds.
Free thinking is the enemy here.
adds [ PM ]
3 December 2007 11:19
Chelh
Am going to butt in here inway, Religion in the lay’s man eye is irrational but in the eyes of a scientific person is logical and clear which part of Islam is not scientifi. The concept of a creator? the concept of heaven and hell? the oulamas are just human like you and I.

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chelhman [ PM ]
3 December 2007 11:29
Adds, my alias is "Chelhman" not "Chelh".

Could you elaborate ? which part of religion is to be considered rational ? How do you merge two incompatible concepts ?
To make it even simpler, it would be like having an imam or a priest give lectures on theoretical physics or to have a physics professor give sermons in a mosque or a church.
Two different domains, serving two different purposes.
stardevil [ PM ]
3 December 2007 14:18
chelhman ,a lot of so called facts mentioned in religion, sometimes science question them , and shows tangible proofs which shows the opposite
i was watching the other day in a program on tv al aljazeira discussing this topic :
they were discussing this : in a hadith it is mentioned that a baby cries at the time of his birth because the shaitan hit him and that what makes him cry , the baby cries because he sees the shaitan who hurts him
but the scientists say : the fact that the baby cries in the first seconds of his birth it is to do with his lungs and little pain caused beacuse of change of environment, from the warm to the open air cause the lung to hurt a little for a s few seconds
so the scientific fact is more credible and logical than the story of the shaitan , sometimes we just have to follow the science a dismiss some myths and some illogical explanation even religion encourage the use of the brain and not just accept everything in a blind way Evil
adds [ PM ]
3 December 2007 23:54
My apologies brother for shortening your nickname, the entity of Allah, soul, hell and heaven are all part of physiques. In fact only physicians who can understand better these concepts of the creater.
\\\\\/////
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