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The Amazigh question
c
chelhman
16 August 2006 19:42
As promised I'm opening this post so that we can discuss the Amazigh question in Morocco calmly if possible.

As my alias shows, I am amazigh, Soussi to be exact, as I said in the previous post I deplore the fact that the Amazigh history has been obliterated from the history books in Morocco. Recently I took an interest in the matter, I've combed the web to try to find some information of who we were before the Arab invasion, I wanted also to know how our language was like before the muslim era. The amazigh language is full of arabic words, but how did we speak before that...etc, my research was a mere historical curiosity. I found next to nothing. The very few information I found was from jewish imazighen who kept some records of what life was like, their interactions with other tribes and so on.
Officially, it's like there was nothing. As I said in another post, it reminded me of the arrogant sentence in european history books : "Christopher Colombus discovered America", really ?! So there was nothing there before ? the natives were part of the local fauna ?

Skip forward to present days, I would like to see Amazigh culture and language more present in our education system, I would like to see one day the King give a speech in Amazigh, that's the least he can do. My aunt used to have her daughter sitting next to her when the king gave a speech, she revered the monarchy but couldn't understand a word he was saying, shouldn't a king be adressing his people in a language they can understand ? My remarks are just common sense, there is nothing vindictive in what I'm saying.

However, I do not share the berberist vision, but for pragmatic reasons, I'm Soussi we always look at the bottom line :

I live in Belgium where I can see first hand how regionalist demands can ruin a country's economy. In Belgium, there's an old feud between Flemish and Walloons, the Flemish have been despised, their culture treated with contempt, economically they were weak, the monarchy was always francophone. In the last 30 years, the table has turned, Vlaanderen (Flemish region) has become the country's economical powerhouse. So they started settling their scores with the rest of the country. They have managed in the last 15 years to break up every national institution and regionalize it, from education to the military. The last thing left is the social security system, but they began the dismantling 3/4 years ago, soon they will be nothing left but a separation of the country, since they don't share anything with the other regions except the monarchy but even the king has been the target of the Flemish press.

We now have a federal gvt and three regional ones, we have the biggest concentration of ministers in the world, since you need 4 ministers of everything. The budget negociations are a haggling circus, the country is deep in debt, if it wasn't for the european institutions on Brussels soil, it would be bankrupt.

Now apply that to our country. It would be untenable. So as a Soussi, I look at the bottom line, we can not afford to sink into regionalist squabbling. But the monarchy better start taking the Amazigh question seriously, otherwise the more it's delayed the more the berberist will get impatient and turn this into a political sine qua non. Do not forget one important thing, Imazighen weigh heavy, and I mean really heavy in our economy, if this question gets too hot and some populist manages to unite them, we'll become Belgium.

Lastly, another reason I do not share the berberist vision : our country is subjected these past few years to an islamist pressure, this is by far the biggest threat I see, it requires of the Moroccans to stay united, not to get distracted by regionalist demands. If we don't keep our eyes on the ball, the beards will use that to swoop in.
I watched a documentary a few days ago on the genesis of the civil war in Algeria, it described with testimonies from former FIS and GIA members, the way they infiltrated the algerian society.
I imagined for one moment the possibility of that scenario in our country, I felt a sense of panic.

I want better recognition of our culture and language but not at the price of handing out our country to those savages.

To finish my thought, I'd say we are a multicultural society, let's recognize all of them, contempt breeds rancour, if I'm asked by an outsider what I am, I say I'm a Moroccan, that's all he/she needs to know, we don't air our dirty laundry.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2006 01:42 by chelhman.
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m
moirk
16 August 2006 21:20
Skip forward to present days, I would like to see Amazigh culture and language more present in our education system, I would like to see one day the King give a speech in Amazigh, that's the least he can do. My aunt used to have her daughter sitting next to her when the king gave a speech, she revered the monarchy but couldn't understand a word he was saying, shouldn't a king be adressing his people in a language they can understand ? My remarks are just common sense, there is nothing vindictive in what I'm saying.



Dear Chelhman,
I just want to point out that not just your aunt who did not understand, but more than 70 % of the population who did not understand. My parents who speak just darija were not able to understand.
Illiteracy was and is the major problem. If your aunt and my parents did have the chance to go to school, the could have learned more than one language or at least one official language, required for any society relying on communication and information for its progress.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2006 09:21 by Krim.
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m
moirk
16 August 2006 21:22
Quote
Krim
Skip forward to present days, I would like to see Amazigh culture and language more present in our education system, I would like to see one day the King give a speech in Amazigh, that's the least he can do. My aunt used to have her daughter sitting next to her when the king gave a speech, she revered the monarchy but couldn't understand a word he was saying, shouldn't a king be adressing his people in a language they can understand ? My remarks are just common sense, there is nothing vindictive in what I'm saying.



Dear Chelhman,
I just want to point out that not just your aunt who did not understand, but more than 70 % of the population who did not understand. My parents who speak just darija were not able to understand.
Illiteracy was and is the major problem. If your aunt and my parents did have the chance to go to school, they could have learned more than one language or at least one official language, required for any society relying on communication and information for its progress.
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c
chelhman
16 August 2006 21:36
Hi Krim,

You know what I meant, the speeches are in arabic only, I don't know al fos7a but I understand a little bit of what he says, my aunt does not speak darija but tachelhit, like a lot of people in the south. Don't you think it's weird that the second most prominent language is never uttered by the leader of the country ? I'm not splitting hairs here, it's not actually that important but it's a symptom of a system that feeds the berberist demands. Like I said, I am against regionalism but the governement's attitude isn't helping. What are they so afraid of ? All they need to do is add a few pages to history books in school, and teach the benefits of multiculture. How hard can that be ?
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J
Jexingo
17 August 2006 03:26
Chelhman, I'm chelh too and I really don't care about learning amazigh at all. Let's just say that I'm one of those berbers who don't give too much a damn about the history of my grand grand grand grand ... parents. I beleive they weren't muslims before the arabs came in and I feel sorry for them that they died before hearing about Islam. That history stops right there.

Instead of wasting time and efforts into translating stuff into some 2000 years old language, I think we should rather spend that money to improve our educational system or invest it in the economy some way or the other. Chelman, only the jews have succeeded in reviving such an old language and it took them a whole lot of fighting. I consider ur demand to hear an Amazigh speech by the king as an extremely silly statement. Chelhman, I would say that the king has so much more important things to deal with.


U talked about Belgium, let me tell u of Kurdistan and specifically the part of it that takes place in Northen Iraq. Everyone has heard of the Mossad excellent relationship with Jalal Talibani. The amazigh question is a zionist creation just like the kurdish question. It is encouraged by the enemies of the muslims to create further divisions inside the muslim society.

Chelhman, since u are a sussi and like to go to the buttom line, maybe the flemish are not considering the king anymore but u can be sure that the beard invasion will surely support the king to put an end to an Amazigh revolution.

Chelman please don't talk about things u cannot comprehend. If u want to talk about Algeria, then state all the facts or shut up.
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c
chelhman
17 August 2006 05:23
Jexingo, I thought I asked for a calm debate, you didn't need to get nasty in your response.

I'm interested in the question solely as a cultural curiosity and because when a culture isn't transmitted, it dies. Again I noticed as in your previous debates, you're reading everything through your muslim identity, I believe it gives you an autistic comprehension of things. My curiosity is ethnological when I mentioned the pre-islamic era.
If I apply your reasoning about feeling sorry for berbers before islam came, then think about this : it's the same arrogance used by the French or the British when they say they brought civilization to a bunch of savages in Africa or Bedouins in Arabia.

Your usual diatribe about a zionist plot behind everything is typical, must everything be their fault ? Are we so stupid in your eyes, that we can be manipulated so easily ? Well, I'm not.
I'm speaking about a culture, I emphazised the fact that I'm not a berberist, I simply think that pretending that a culture never existed is suicidal, we are encouraging a minority mentality, which inevitably leads to vindictive regionalism.

About Algeria, what is it you think you know that I don't ? Don't give me that line about extremism never existing, that it was a ploy by the generals : it's revisionist. The fanatics did take over entire regions, the generals infiltrated them but only near the end and radicalized them even further to discredit them.

This post has nothing to do with religion, it's about a culture, nothing more. And try to stay courteous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2006 10:02 by chelhman.
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m
moirk
17 August 2006 08:42
History is one of the oldest academic disciplines known to mankind. For centuries it has been an important source of knowledge and wisdom. History serves as the collective memory of humanity ­ without it we would be like amnesia patients unable to comprehend the past, present or future.

I just copy/paste.
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c
chelhman
17 August 2006 08:52
Thanks Krim, it sums up eloquently my interest on a great part of the amazigh matter, all I want is to understand my country's history.
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k
kouider
17 August 2006 10:54
Quote
Jexingo
Chelhman, I'm chelh too and I really don't care about learning amazigh at all. Let's just say that I'm one of those berbers who don't give too much a damn about the history of my grand grand grand grand ... parents. I beleive they weren't muslims before the arabs came in and I feel sorry for them that they died before hearing about Islam. That history stops right there.

Instead of wasting time and efforts into translating stuff into some 2000 years old language, I think we should rather spend that money to improve our educational system or invest it in the economy some way or the other. Chelman, only the jews have succeeded in reviving such an old language and it took them a whole lot of fighting. I consider ur demand to hear an Amazigh speech by the king as an extremely silly statement. Chelhman, I would say that the king has so much more important things to deal with.


U talked about Belgium, let me tell u of Kurdistan and specifically the part of it that takes place in Northen Iraq. Everyone has heard of the Mossad excellent relationship with Jalal Talibani. The amazigh question is a zionist creation just like the kurdish question. It is encouraged by the enemies of the muslims to create further divisions inside the muslim society.

Chelhman, since u are a sussi and like to go to the buttom line, maybe the flemish are not considering the king anymore but u can be sure that the beard invasion will surely support the king to put an end to an Amazigh revolution.

Chelman please don't talk about things u cannot comprehend. If u want to talk about Algeria, then state all the facts or shut up.

I am just astonished by "berbers" scriblling such stupidities!!!
Let alone others commentaries!!!

Kouider
-------------------------------------------Pas de Maroc ni d'Algerie sans Tamazight!-------------------------------------------
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m
moirk
17 August 2006 11:24
Generally we go to fast in critisizing others. A behaviour which is at the heart of the critics we are trying to adress.
Sorry, I am just talking to myself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2006 11:25 by Krim.
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k
kouider
17 August 2006 11:38
Quote
Krim
Generally we go to fast in critisizing others. A behaviour which is at the heart of the critics we are trying to adress.
Sorry, I am just talking to myself.

Take your time, slowly slowly!!!
Maybe, We would wait for you over there!

Kouider
-------------------------------------------Pas de Maroc ni d'Algerie sans Tamazight!-------------------------------------------
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m
moirk
17 August 2006 14:59
Does Kouider have a meaning ?
Thanks
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k
kouider
17 August 2006 16:49
Quote
Krim
Does Kouider have a meaning ?
Thanks

It does mean An Amazigh who would NEVER sold out his millenaries heritage and foremost his Dignity!!!

Kouider
-------------------------------------------Pas de Maroc ni d'Algerie sans Tamazight!-------------------------------------------
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m
moirk
17 August 2006 17:57
[www.cme-energy.com]
Vous êtes algerien donc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2006 05:58 by Krim.
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c
chelhman
17 August 2006 18:03
grinning smiley krim, you don't take prisoners !
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gabriella
17 August 2006 18:14
Quote
chelhman
As promised I'm opening this post so that we can discuss the Amazigh question in Morocco I would just like to comment on the "Christopher Columbus "reference..There is no way to compare his discovery of a New World to the Maghreb....Before the arab invasion, as you call it, Morocco had a culture and related history, it was not a wild Continent inhabited by local indians only...A lot of history has been preserved and respected, even I ( non moroccan ) know about the Berbers and their language..I am sorry some of the culture has been replaced by Islam , but never forgotten, nést pas ?
So lets be grateful for that, at least...smiling smiley




As my alias shows, I am amazigh, Soussi to be exact, as I said in the previous post I deplore the fact that the Amazigh history has been obliterated from the history books in Morocco. Recently I took an interest in the matter, I've combed the web to try to find some information of who we were before the Arab invasion, I wanted also to know how our language was like before the muslim era. The amazigh language is full of arabic words, but how did we speak before that...etc, my research was a mere historical curiosity. I found next to nothing. The very few information I found was from jewish imazighen who kept some records of what life was like, their interactions with other tribes and so on.
Officially, it's like there was nothing. As I said in another post, it reminded me of the arrogant sentence in european history books : "Christopher Colombus discovered America", really ?! So there was nothing there before ? the natives were part of the local fauna ?

Skip forward to present days, I would like to see Amazigh culture and language more present in our education system, I would like to see one day the King give a speech in Amazigh, that's the least he can do. My aunt used to have her daughter sitting next to her when the king gave a speech, she revered the monarchy but couldn't understand a word he was saying, shouldn't a king be adressing his people in a language they can understand ? My remarks are just common sense, there is nothing vindictive in what I'm saying.

However, I do not share the berberist vision, but for pragmatic reasons, I'm Soussi we always look at the bottom line :

I live in Belgium where I can see first hand how regionalist demands can ruin a country's economy. In Belgium, there's an old feud between Flemish and Walloons, the Flemish have been despised, their culture treated with contempt, economically they were weak, the monarchy was always francophone. In the last 30 years, the table has turned, Vlaanderen (Flemish region) has become the country's economical powerhouse. So they started settling their scores with the rest of the country. They have managed in the last 15 years to break up every national institution and regionalize it, from education to the military. The last thing left is the social security system, but they began the dismantling 3/4 years ago, soon they will be nothing left but a separation of the country, since they don't share anything with the other regions except the monarchy but even the king has been the target of the Flemish press.

We now have a federal gvt and three regional ones, we have the biggest concentration of ministers in the world, since you need 4 ministers of everything. The budget negociations are a haggling circus, the country is deep in debt, if it wasn't for the european institutions on Brussels soil, it would be bankrupt.

Now apply that to our country. It would be untenable. So as a Soussi, I look at the bottom line, we can not afford to sink into regionalist squabbling. But the monarchy better start taking the Amazigh question seriously, otherwise the more it's delayed the more the berberist will get impatient and turn this into a political sine qua non. Do not forget one important thing, Imazighen weigh heavy, and I mean really heavy in our economy, if this question gets too hot and some populist manages to unite them, we'll become Belgium.

Lastly, another reason I do not share the berberist vision : our country is subjected these past few years to an islamist pressure, this is by far the biggest threat I see, it requires of the Moroccans to stay united, not to get distracted by regionalist demands. If we don't keep our eyes on the ball, the beards will use that to swoop in.
I watched a documentary a few days ago on the genesis of the civil war in Algeria, it described with testimonies from former FIS and GIA members, the way they infiltrated the algerian society.
I imagined for one moment the possibility of that scenario in our country, I felt a sense of panic.

I want better recognition of our culture and language but not at the price of handing out our country to those savages.

To finish my thought, I'd say we are a multicultural society, let's recognize all of them, contempt breeds rancour, if I'm asked by an outsider what I am, I say I'm a Moroccan, that's all he/she needs to know, we don't air our dirty laundry.
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k
kouider
17 August 2006 18:15
Quote
Krim
http://www.cme-energy.com/about/bios/Belguendouz.html
Vous êtes algerien donc.

Hahahahaha
I am a north-african proud of his ancestral origins, prying man!!!

Kouider
-------------------------------------------Pas de Maroc ni d'Algerie sans Tamazight!-------------------------------------------
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c
chelhman
17 August 2006 18:29
Quote
gabriella

I would just like to comment on the "Christopher Columbus "reference..There is no way to compare his discovery of a New World to the Maghreb....Before the arab invasion, as you call it, Morocco had a culture and related history, it was not a wild Continent inhabited by local indians only...A lot of history has been preserved and respected, even I ( non moroccan ) know about the Berbers and their language..I am sorry some of the culture has been replaced by Islam , but never forgotten, nést pas ?
So lets be grateful for that, at least...smiling smiley

Hi Gabriella,


The comparison with Christopher Colombus was just to illustrate, sometimes taking an extreme example is better than a long annoying speech. But I've looked in our official history books, there's really nothing regarding the pre-islamic era. You say you know about the berber language, as I do, but it's the contemporary form that has evolved with arabic in the mix.

Surely, berbers must have had a language, traditions, interactions with their neighbours, Phenicians, Romans, Iberians...etc, but officially none of it taught. It's just history, there's nothing to fear from knowledge.
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R
Relief
18 August 2006 02:08
I`m berber and I care Less if anyone is berber or arab or sahrawi ....our country holds us together ...Do u think that people choose to be who they are...we were born berbers so what ??? ...are we better than the other ..i don`t think so ...If we are about to compare ourselves with others,,,arabs or sahrawis...Lets have it on the basis of our Religion.....everyone is the same in the eyes of God...He is the only one to judge people not us ....what is the deal with descriminating between ourselves....so if a war breaks up in Morocco ...we are supposed to take sides or unite together?????........The king spending Hours learning how to give a speech in berber....do u know how long it takes him to memorise it in Arabis let alone in Berber...I think he has better things to do .......lets ask Kofi Annan to speak Arabic in one of his speechs...He reprents the united nations....Can u do that??....Let me know if u can....lets be real and face the real issues...face the future smiling smiley
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c
chelhman
18 August 2006 02:50
Relief, about the king speech, by now the technology of a teleprompter must have reached him, but like I said to Krim, it's only a symptom, focusing on that detail isn't advancing the debate. And once more this post has nothing to do with religion, I'm talking about including a major trait of our cultural heritage in the history books, nothing else. This isn't political or religious, it's just a cultural matter, but when culture is ignored or despised, it becomes political, I gave you the example of what happened in Belgium.
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m
moirk
18 August 2006 10:41
Dear Chelhman,
If you try to get an overview in all areas of research in Morocco and in all academic studies. You will not limit your critic to just to the history books. Tell me one single area or academic field where you can say, hier moroccans are strong and did an innovative solid work. Niet
So if you have advances in one area, you will have driving forces to developp others. There is a strong interplay. This leads me say to Relief, all issues and fields are important in a society. All what we need is engaged citizens who work hard, interact which each other and open to other cultures and learn from them what is good for us.
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R
Relief
18 August 2006 14:43
chelhman...talking about it is easy ...doing something about it is the hard part..I`m not critising u r commitment towards the issue...

Here is a copy and paste

Morocco is a country of multi-ethnic groups with a rich culture and civilization. Through Moroccan history, Morocco hosted many people coming from both East (Berbers, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Jews and Arabs), South (Africans) and North (Romans, Vandals, Moors and Jews). All those civilizations should have an impact on the social structure of Morocco. It conceived all forms of beliefs, from paganism, Judaism, Christianity to Islam.

Each region possesses its own specificities, contributing, thus, to the making of national culture and to the civilization legacy. Morocco has set among its top priorities the protection of its legacy and the preservation of its cultural identity.

Ethnically and culturally speaking, Morocco nowadays can be considered the least Arabic among Arab countries. Most of its population are of Berber origins.

what should we do about the other ones ...ignore them...one way or another they are connected to our heritage as Moroccans......that is the History of Morocco but we do need all parties involved to work together smiling smileysmiling smiley
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Y
Yani
18 August 2006 17:33
Hi everybody;

I'm back from a fairly long break. I see that the debate is strong thanks to some old folks and new ones...

To add to this debate so dear to my heart...I have a berber blood in me too, so goes the saying in most answers! The wealth of Morocco, as a country and North Africa as a Region comes from the different ethnic groups that intermingle and form independentcountries! Morocco. Algeria...
To say that things should go back to square 1 and start over giving power to the natives is a nothing but nice rethoric and would end up to the proponents reflecting their unwillingness to go forward and ultimately proving their ignorance of the actual reality; be it political, economical...
In short, As Moroccans, it's nice to be able to trace one's roots back to wahtever they are or might be, but it's wise to have this instinct of moroccanity to preserve a sense of unity!

Language is a unifiyinfg factor, of course religion too, but let's be realistic...religion is so politicised these days that you don't know the beleiver from the demagogue! So That makes it a personal matter, in my view!

I do share the view of those who advocate the use of the native, dialects in schools and the media...it's a far fetched idea to have the King; esp this one, give his speech in those dialects since he's not keen on giving speeches even in arabic...but I'm sure the media does that for him...

Speaking of this King, who made many a change ever since he got to his father's throne, one of the main changes that might have hurt the Amzigh question is his marriage! Historically, and you guys can trace this back as far as you want,the King made sure he married at leastsmiling smiley an Arab and an Amazigh! e.g Hassan2 and abdallah had different mothers, one arab, one amazigh; M6 and Rachid the same thing...that created a certain balance in reflecting the demographics....M6 seems to have broken/ to break that tradition, for lack of a better word! Good or bad...I'm sure that's debatable...But it has also settled the question that We're Moroccans with mixed bloods in us and there's no dissecting that!

Relief;

Would you please include the source of your copy/paste passage, I'm curious to know more...Thanks.
Cheers
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k
kouider
19 August 2006 01:41
Quote
Yani
Hi everybody;

I'm back from a fairly long break. I see that the debate is strong thanks to some old folks and new ones...

To add to this debate so dear to my heart...I have a berber blood in me too, so goes the saying in most answers! The wealth of Morocco, as a country and North Africa as a Region comes from the different ethnic groups that intermingle and form independentcountries! Morocco. Algeria...
To say that things should go back to square 1 and start over giving power to the natives is a nothing but nice rethoric and would end up to the proponents reflecting their unwillingness to go forward and ultimately proving their ignorance of the actual reality; be it political, economical...
In short, As Moroccans, it's nice to be able to trace one's roots back to wahtever they are or might be, but it's wise to have this instinct of moroccanity to preserve a sense of unity!

Language is a unifiyinfg factor, of course religion too, but let's be realistic...religion is so politicised these days that you don't know the beleiver from the demagogue! So That makes it a personal matter, in my view!

I do share the view of those who advocate the use of the native, dialects in schools and the media...it's a far fetched idea to have the King; esp this one, give his speech in those dialects since he's not keen on giving speeches even in arabic...but I'm sure the media does that for him...

Speaking of this King, who made many a change ever since he got to his father's throne, one of the main changes that might have hurt the Amzigh question is his marriage! Historically, and you guys can trace this back as far as you want,the King made sure he married at leastsmiling smiley an Arab and an Amazigh! e.g Hassan2 and abdallah had different mothers, one arab, one amazigh; M6 and Rachid the same thing...that created a certain balance in reflecting the demographics....M6 seems to have broken/ to break that tradition, for lack of a better word! Good or bad...I'm sure that's debatable...But it has also settled the question that We're Moroccans with mixed bloods in us and there's no dissecting that!

Relief;

Would you please include the source of your copy/paste passage, I'm curious to know more...Thanks.
Cheers

The amazigh identity, culture and language were subjected to an unquestionable genocide during decades, you do like it or not that is a FACT.
For me, and for people like me, the big point is about the death or survival of our millinaries' heritage, no one is talking about "erasing all over" and "start from square 1".
We are talking about our BASIC and FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to have our Culture, Language and Identity OFFICIALLY and CONSTITUTIONALLY recognized in our country.
Is that, for you, so difficult to catch?

Kouider
-------------------------------------------Pas de Maroc ni d'Algerie sans Tamazight!-------------------------------------------
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e
ecogest
19 August 2006 15:20
tu cherche koi au juste?

Dommage que de tels sujets soient ouverts par des personnes qui ne cherchent, implicitement ou explicitement, que la division des peuples. ils se prennent pour des gens de savoir mais en fait ils sont manipulés par des forces sionistes.

un conseil: avant de dire des conneries(genre invasion arabe....) je te propose de feuilleter correctement l'histoire et tu trouveras à plusieurs reprises que les magharibas étaient des bergers analphabètes et l'islam venait éclaircir leurs cerveaux. et si tu as zapé cette partie de l'histoire, ça ne m'étonne pas car c'est ça en fait l'objectif des sionistes. je te propose aussi de lire " les protocoles des sionistes". tu comprendras par la suite leur stratégie....

j'ai appelé déja sur un post à l'unification mais apparemment ce genre de discours ne t'intéresse pas. et en plus depuis que je suis sur yabiladi j'ai jamais vu un pseudo genre "arabman". Pourquoi cherches-tu à te distinguer des marocain(e)s avec ton pseudo "chelhman"?

Cordialement
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c
chelhman
19 August 2006 16:24
Ecogest,

1. C'est un forum en anglais
2. je n'ai pas à prouver ma marocanité
3. Relis TOUT ce que j'ai écris avant de raconter n'importe quoi
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k
kouider
19 August 2006 17:50
Quote
ecogest
tu cherche koi au juste?

Dommage que de tels sujets soient ouverts par des personnes qui ne cherchent, implicitement ou explicitement, que la division des peuples. ils se prennent pour des gens de savoir mais en fait ils sont manipulés par des forces sionistes.

un conseil: avant de dire des conneries(genre invasion arabe....) je te propose de feuilleter correctement l'histoire et tu trouveras à plusieurs reprises que les magharibas étaient des bergers analphabètes et l'islam venait éclaircir leurs cerveaux. et si tu as zapé cette partie de l'histoire, ça ne m'étonne pas car c'est ça en fait l'objectif des sionistes. je te propose aussi de lire " les protocoles des sionistes". tu comprendras par la suite leur stratégie....

j'ai appelé déja sur un post à l'unification mais apparemment ce genre de discours ne t'intéresse pas. et en plus depuis que je suis sur yabiladi j'ai jamais vu un pseudo genre "arabman". Pourquoi cherches-tu à te distinguer des marocain(e)s avec ton pseudo "chelhman"?

Cordialement

It was an INVASION, the worst our beloved land have ever experienced!!!
Kouider
-------------------------------------------Pas de Maroc ni d'Algerie sans Tamazight!-------------------------------------------
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Y
Yani
19 August 2006 18:17
Chelhman;

Reading your responses, What I understand from Ecogest's response is that he refers more to ppl like Kouider rather than you!
Now, this is my response to

Mr.Kouider;

Lots of things are hard to catch in this period of time, including your sensed anger at approaching this issue! Granted, your passionate about your beliefs and that's great, but don't be rigid!relax and read carefully! and if you have to quote me, at least do that accurately! "erasing all over", these are not my words, but no biggie! I guess you missed my reference to berbers as the natives!

What I don't catch is your gratuitous use of words such as Identity and Basic rights...My mom is berber, from Souss, and I am proud of that! she speaks Arabic and taught us arabic and also taught us to beleive in the berber Identity and rights...but that a battle most moroccans are fighting, get it, moroccans! ...now that I am spending some time researching the heritage, culture, dialects..., professinally, I regret not having learned at least one dialect while growing up.

Before you attack,instinctly,and keep repeating big words, do something...It's not by barking at the government, ours, that you'll get things done,OR may be you can! I prefer another approach! and don't misunderstand me here, I am with you in what you say, but I chose to act rather than preach and verbally attack some Folks, who are, to my surprise, defending your cause! Just because their approach and take on the issue is not similar to yours, Does NOt make them Wrong or less proud of their berber heritage.
Now, if you have some references for me to use, I'd gladly and thankfully use them. I can use all the help I can on this subject! If you decide to insult me,however, then your failling your cause and you missed everylittle point I tried to make!

Cheers;
Yani
Reply Quote
c
chelhman
19 August 2006 19:42
Kouider, you need to understand something. Moroccan Imazighen are not separatists, they simply want a better recognition of the amazigh heritage, it's a cultural demand not a political one. The monarchy is the glue that holds us together and as far I'm concerned it's the best bulwark we have against the beards which are already making inroads in moroccan society, just take a look at this post : we are talking about a culture but islam somehow finds its way into the debate.


Moroccan Imazighen are Moroccans first. Algeria isn't Morocco, we have a different history, we weren't a french colony but a protectorate, it makes all the difference in the world because your country was completely frenchified, your languages were obliterated.

Our problem is different : during the 60/70's the panarabic movement in our administration overshadowed the amazigh culture, their vision shaped the history books since we just had our independence, and they were at the helm. Now, we have a king who is more in tune with moroccan society than his father was, freedom of expression and culture is the engine driving his reforms, that's why the amazigh question is on the table in moroccan society.

As far I am concerned, besides a recognition of the cultural heritage, I don't think we should take it any further. Algerian Imazighen have an old score to settle, we don't. And you have the same problem we do, the minute you divide yourselves, the beards will swoop in, you've been through that already, you know that better than any of us here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2006 01:40 by chelhman.
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k
kouider
19 August 2006 20:29
Quote
Yani
Chelhman;

Reading your responses, What I understand from Ecogest's response is that he refers more to ppl like Kouider rather than you!
Now, this is my response to

Mr.Kouider;

Lots of things are hard to catch in this period of time, including your sensed anger at approaching this issue! Granted, your passionate about your beliefs and that's great, but don't be rigid!relax and read carefully! and if you have to quote me, at least do that accurately! "erasing all over", these are not my words, but no biggie! I guess you missed my reference to berbers as the natives!

What I don't catch is your gratuitous use of words such as Identity and Basic rights...My mom is berber, from Souss, and I am proud of that! she speaks Arabic and taught us arabic and also taught us to beleive in the berber Identity and rights...but that a battle most moroccans are fighting, get it, moroccans! ...now that I am spending some time researching the heritage, culture, dialects..., professinally, I regret not having learned at least one dialect while growing up.

Before you attack,instinctly,and keep repeating big words, do something...It's not by barking at the government, ours, that you'll get things done,OR may be you can! I prefer another approach! and don't misunderstand me here, I am with you in what you say, but I chose to act rather than preach and verbally attack some Folks, who are, to my surprise, defending your cause! Just because their approach and take on the issue is not similar to yours, Does NOt make them Wrong or less proud of their berber heritage.
Now, if you have some references for me to use, I'd gladly and thankfully use them. I can use all the help I can on this subject! If you decide to insult me,however, then your failling your cause and you missed everylittle point I tried to make!

Cheers;
Yani

First and foremost, STOP diminishing my beloved language, as arabists-baathists-fundamentalists do, by labeling it "dialect".
Any respectable linguist would inform you that there has never been a scientific distinction between "language" and what you call contemptuously, I know it, "dialect".
Syntaxic/phonetic differences between the Amazigh Language variants, spoken all over north-africa, are the result of Historical and political processes.
You must concede however that those differences are by no means a barrier for the radiant singleness of the amazigh language. They would have been scientificaly worked out if the states in charge of the culture/education/ systems had put since ever some pennies to promote our language and if the continuing arabists' genocidal plan had been foiled from the beginning.

Kouider
-------------------------------------------Pas de Maroc ni d'Algerie sans Tamazight!-------------------------------------------
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