Morocco # English board

The Moroccan Makhzen has responded to the recent riots in universities with a fierce repression against Berber students belonging to MCA. The riots originally blasted at Taza university while Berber students were celebrating the seventh anniversary of Kabylie Berber spring upraising. Herds of arabo-baathist students belonging to Annahj Addimocrati assaulted the peacefully celebrating Berber students. The riots then spread to other universities all across Morocco such as Meknes, Marrakech, Agadir, Casablanca and Errachidia. Two casualties have been reported at Errachidia inter-students violence. According to informed sources reported by www.yafelman.com website, the Makhzen has adopted a new strategy in cracking down on Berber activists that consists of creating feuding between the Berber students and other groups such as arabo-baathists. In the aftermath of riots, Makhzen of morocco ordered the detention of hundreds of Berber students who where kidnapped overnight at their apartments and dorms. No single arabo-baathist student has been arrested to prove that the Makhzen uses deliberately this violent group to crack down on peaceful Berber students.

Here is a video showing some arrested students who loudly claim their innocence from their Moroccan prisons.

[www.dailymotion.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2007 04:48PM by Abdalghafor.

This is really counter-productive and unnecessary. Why celebrate the Kabylie Spring uprising? Are we Algerians or Moroccans?? and why turn this into a confrontation with so-called Arab baathists?? Most Moroccans are like myself, both Berber and Arab, mixed blood, and we have no room for such stupid tribal conflicts. We don't need more problems than what we already have. Berbers refused to follow the French instigations during colonialist times ihat aimed at dividing the country and we did not wait for the 21st century to start following them. Do hope that this post was not itself aimimg at creating more trouble than what we already deal with.

You said why celebrating uprising of Kabiliye, I say, why not.
Why celebrating plastinians and why demonstrating for Iraqies?
We, Berbers, consider Kabyls as our brothers from the great Tamazgha (North Africa). The Maghreb Arab is just à joke of arabo-baathists governing both Morocco and Algeria, we rather believe in the great Tamazgha stretching from Egyptian Siwa to Canary Islands, from mediteranean see to deeper in the saharan desert...
Aren't you ashamed to focus on futile matters and show no sensitivity to the ordeal where these peaceful Berber students are put by the Moroccan tyranic Makhzen? You feel comfortable to see hundreds of Berber students thrown in moroccan prisons with no chance of getting à fair trial.
You need to grow and get documented on true moroccan history to figure out that so called "Dahir Berber" used in Makhzenian propaganda is just a joke. Wake up!!!

Shireen is completely right about what she said and i agree with her, the so-called Great Tamazgha"'s history, some dumb "amazighi" movements (willingly or unwillingly) are trying to turn Morocco into another Iraq, we are a mixture of both arabs and berbers, and we do not need anybody to tell us otherwise, we can be arabs (by tongue or race)as well as berbers, i don't see the difference, Egypt is not a racially arab country, only 10 percent of its population is, they're Eastern Hamitics but they're arabized and they feel comfortable with it ( although they had one of the oldest civilizations in the world) , the same with many other arab countries (Syria, Palestine and even Yemen where many a7bash and other races live in harmony under the arab identity) so stop breaking our heads with this bereber stories that lead to nothing but more headaches and chaos !

@ Abdalghafor,

No I am not ashamed. Far from that, I am a proud Moroccan who proudly does NOT care about ethnicity. Such ideas are tribal and take us several centuries back. My last name is as berber as it could be but how could I "kill" the Arab part of me? And most Moroccans have Berber blood or Arab blood anyway...As much as I care about the celebration of Berber or Amazigh culture,including language, busic, traditions (you name it) at the same time I consider any divisive concepts to be sterile and counter-productive at best and dangerous at worst. The whole Muslim world is in turmoil, in Iraq the Shiites are fighting the Sunnis, in Palestine Hamas is fighting Fatah, Lebanon is on the brink of civil war so we do not need additional conflicts that will lead to further self-destruction.

Unfortunately Abdalghafor it seems I was right about my assumption about your post. I respect your opinion but I do not accept it. I am also very busy and will probably not have a chance to discuss this further but wanted to briefly state what I thought.

Regards.

Shame on both of you!!! You feel happy to see hundreds of innocent Berber students in Makhzen prisons!!
This proves your degree of hatered and racism towards Berbers.
You feel normal to see moroccan arabs demonstrate for Irak and Palestine and you lash on at Berbers demonstrating in support for their brothers in Kabilie. This is just a double standard. Arabs can do what ever they want and Berbers not!This is a typical arabo-islamist dictatorial stand point.
Arabo-baathist students of Annahj Addimocrati did right in assaulting peacefully demonstrating berbers according to your statements. I am sorry to tell you that this is an ashaming barbarian way of thinking.

AbdelGhafoor
Shireen told you what i was about to tell you : this topic is a real headache and i don't want to discuss anything because we'd never agree on any opinion, demonstration in favor of any arab/Moslem cause is an OBLIGATION but on some stupid racial, fuddy-daddy, back to dinosaurs' ages is ... Bull*** !
have a nice day !

Abdelghafour,

Makhzen doesnot only oppress amazigh's, if you ask for example people from the south (sahraoui's) they will tell you the same, and also that all moroccans are "chlihat moulana" and there's no such distinction in their mind between arabs and berbers. As far as Kabyles are concerned, be sure that they consider themselves as kabyles and not amazighs, i had a lot of friends from kabylie (in belgium and france) and they just don't refer to themselves as berbers or amazighs (this is due to a lot of criteria..)

another important thing is that in morocco there is not only berbers and arabs, but also berber-arab populations. there is a lot of arab populations who were berberized, especially chorfa adarissa who's ancestors are logiccally Ali (K) and Fatima (R) and are present in souss and marrakech , and also berber populations that were arabicized .... what are we going to do with these people, send them to mauritania ?? If we set up tamzgha in north africa, what are going to do with arabs and black non-touareg africans who were brought as slaves from the kingdom of songhay by force ?...

the most important fact is that these divisions, namely in the university, only profit to Makhzen and AWAX bosses, if all the students were unified, they would logiccally be stronger and not divided and weak, each one yelling in his corner...what u called arab baathists are in my opinion mere shadows.. when i was a student in university in morocco (1991-1996), there was the same divisions between Marxists and islamists and it only profited to the autorities ....

finally, i would like to give you and advice, if you want really to defend your cause and be positive, you have to be open to discussion, do not start by insulting people who disagree with, otherwise onbody will listen to you....

PS: i'm arab, with sahraoui and berber blood, and a BREBER family name who am i supposed to defend ?

you are arab and have a berber family name ?

yes my friend, pure 3roubi with an "AIT" in my family name

Sure, why not? Morocco is a melting pot made up of people of different ancestries. There are some pure Arab pockets and other pure Berber pockets but they are far from making up the majority. Most Moroccans have mixed blood. So let us not dwell on sterile arguments that bring us further down in undervelopmemt. Abdelghafour, I guess you got your answer now.

all idelogies based on ethnic selection were and are a disaster, what happened in palestine, ruanda is a real illustration of this.....

Yes indeed, same thing in Sudan. and these internal divisions make Western countries even more powerful and make us a little bit weaker everyday.

It's awfull to hear such a statements from people supposed to have had a higher level of education.
Why demosntrating for palestinians and for Iraqies is an obligations? and why demonstrating for Kabyls who are fiercely oppressed by the Algerian regime is an heresy. I can't imagine how moroccan Arabs use a double standard language when dealing with Berbers.

I have never heard any single Berber calling for deportation of Arabs to Saoudi Arabia neither for eradication of Arab language and Islam religion in Morocco. The vast majority of Berbers admit the bicultural nature of Morocco with Arabic culture and Amazigh culture. The vast majority of Berbers are bilinguals, speaking both Arabic and Berber. Not a single Arab Moroccan speaks Berber nor wishes to speak it!!!. Berbers believe in diversity of ethnic Morocco with Arabs and Berbers living peacefully and respectfully.

It is the Moroccan Arabs and the Moroccan regime who want to ERADICATE Moroccan Berber identity, language and legacy. It's towards this tyrannic regime with the one in Algeria that Berber students of the MCA demonstrated against, to get assaulted by Arabo-baathist student of Annahj Addimocrati.
It is a crime against humanity and against nature that tyrannic Moroccan regime strives to arabize Berbers as much as possible since the end of French occupation. At least 8 million Berbers lost their language and identity because of the criminal arabization policy of the Moroccan Regime

You should arab guys bear in mind that Berbers are not Arabs and will never be Arabs. Berbers are the true people of North Africa who were dwelling there for more than 8000 years.

We,Berbers, respect Arabs as a people, and accept arabs as part of moroccan people and culture, but will never accept Morocco to be an Arab country. This would be a terrible disrespect to Berber people and their 8000 years history in North Africa.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2007 04:25PM by Abdalghafor.

Sorry to tell you berber language is good for nothing buddy and that's a fact ! it's a language just like Egyptian hieroglyphs, and the amazighi culture with all the respect to all berbers whom my blood is sure mixed with, is just an oral culture not some written heritage and nobody would convince me we can go away with teaching some old-time language and say : finally we're ourselves !!! arabic has never been a problem here in Morocco until the coming of a bunch of stupid , trouble-making organizations who claim they'e the defendants of amazighi culture, al mokhtar assoussi wrote in arabic, al Khattabi was a judge who sure never wrote a word in "tifi i don't know" ! gotta be proud of being a part of the arab world were Islam's easy to follow since arabic is widely spoken and taught from elementary, think about indonesians, indians, pakis, and every non-arab moslem , these organizations have a devilish background, supported by some darkside frenchies who always tried to tear us apart, Morocco Is and Will remain arabic (maybe not full_racially) ! he who wants to speak berber is free but no headaches please !

Andelghafour,

you seem to give statistics out of a poll carried out by amnesty international or human rights watch, how can you confirm that all - as you called them - arab moroccans want to eradicate berber identity? did you ask them one by one ? how can you confirm that "arab moroccans" don't respect berber identity (i'm arab and not only respect berbers but also feel myself as a berber- i have started learning soussia since my chilhood)? and that berbers are all bilingual ? and all respect "arab moroccans"? and etc, etc, etc,

sorry to tell this, i recognize in your ideas ready made ideas we found in the moroccan university,

You seem to regard makhzen as an arab regime, you forget that the king of morocco is half berber, his mother(hassan II's wife) is from the middle atlas, and his grandmother is a glaoui berber from the region of warzazate (hassan II's mother), you forgot also that a lot of people who helped settled this regime are berbers, the list is long ( oufkir, medbouh, aherdane, jettou.......)

you seem fo forget that without berbers islam would have never existed in morocco and that the first moroccan dynasties are all berber, the idrissides ( idriss I arrived and only with few companions and without aouraba tribe this dynasty would never existed), the almoravides, the almohades ( ibn toumert who was a great genuis never denied the legitamcy of islam). the two latters never fought under an ethnic banner, they had two different islamic "ideologies" or points of view. the same thing for the merinides who's artistic view still exists in fes and marrakech... the same thing for the saadiens who, even though arabs, would have never come to power without the berber support... the same thing for alaouites, whe settled in sijilmassa and mixed with "sanhaja"...the examples in moroccan history and present are numerous ...

Nevertheless, it is true that language berber has lost some of it's importance, but don't tell me that was deliberately done... only one third of world languages remain today, and especially those who have a strong writing system. also, it's also your responsility to do something to protect your language - in a positive way -, a lot of families in agadir for example speak arabic at home and don't tell me the regime asks them to do so...

Finally, as i know moroccans very well, let me assure you that this "one berber identity" doesn't and will never exist in morocco. i tell you why... simply because a soussi in morocco will never consider an IHIHI (from 7a7a )as his brother, in the same way that a rifi despises an AGEL3I ( nador region) and will never consider him as rifi, it would be an inslut for him .... we are very sectarian in morocco, arabs or berbers or whatever ......

as a conclusion, this post-colonial debate was imported from algeria which obviously has a different history .. among berbers through history were people of great genius, great oulama ..nobody before the 1990's has ever talked aout such issues, why now.....

salam

This is meant to mister Shelby only,

That's your right to reject Tifinagh and reject Berber, but believe me that Berber consciousness is more than ever alive in our a country despite the disproportionate retaliation of the arabo-baathist Makhzen, and sooner or later, peacefully or through hudge demonstrations and strikes all over the country, the Berber heritage will overwelminglly throw out arabo-baathist garbadge that led so many countrie to the ruin and terrorism (Irak, Palestine, Algeria, Lybia, Saoudi Arabia). Just show me a single arab country where democraty and human rights prevail? All arab countries are eitheir ruled by tyrans or Islamists. All arab countries combined lost 6-to-0 against a very tiny country called Israel

You believe that Tifinagh is the scripts of the stone age, well, that's your stand point, but let me return you the compliment, myself and my descent will never learn the Spagheties of Arabic, the language that is only good to teach Islamism and that fails when dealing with science, technology and computers and humanities. It's the language that shapes the minds of terrorists and leads directlly to unemployement, mediocrity and underdeveloppement.

To Hicham_B,

It is a pleasure to debate with you since you seem not to stick to that dictatorial way of thinkings "arabs or nothing else" as mister Shelby a would-be terrorist is claiming.
I agree with you that there are plenty of "amazigh de service" such as mister Aherdane and Lansar etc. who were priviledged by Tyran Hassan2 and who did the dirty job of arabizing Berbers of Midlle Atlas (Meknes, Zemmour, Zayan) similar to that dirty job that Mister Basri did in torturing thousands of regime opponents.
The King, though having a Berber mother, is no Berber as he is proud of his origins tracing back to Yanbu3 in Saoudi Arabia and prophet son-in-law Ali lineage. We enjoy several events in Morocco celeberating the Alaouit sherif lineage of the King!!!

For decades Berber identity has been a subversive matter and Berber activists were thrown to Tazmamart bagne. Then a pseudo oppening has been observed since the reign of Mohamed 6 through the creation of Ircam, but still Berber matters are deliberately silenced in media, television and politics. We still have 99% arabic programs on our TV. Two political parties PDA (parti democrate amazigh) of mister Adgherni and Izegzawn (greens) of Louzi had been refused by the regime.
The Berber culture is good as a folklore to show to western tourists and Berbers are only good to serve their masters of the arabo-baathist-alaouite regime. Morocco is achieving 10 million tourists by 2010 thanks to Berber regions landscapes, Berber traditions and Berber cities (Agadir Marrakech, Taroudant, Tiznit, Warzazate, Zagora). I have not seen a single tourist visiting arabs of Oulad Hriz Settat region nor Beni Hssen Sidi Kacem region....

I have been a Berber activist for more than two decades and I can assure you that anti-arab expressed ideas represent a very tiny minority in our movement. We highly exhibit anti-arabist (not anti-arab) ideas but we never fell into racism and intolerance. It's these Arabs of the kind of Shelby who express this racist anti-berber ideas in our country. These are typically pro-regime citizen who profited for long from the corrupted regime advantages.

We, Berbers, believe in multi-cultural Morocco. Who else believes in a uniform arab Morocco is just a fashist!!

Abdelghafoor : Allah Yaghfar lak !
Arabic is the language of tomorrow whether you like it or not, one of these days you or your sons would bite their lips real hard when they find themselves outrun by arabic-speaking ones.

Calling arabic a language of terrorism shows how hateful you are towards arabs and moslems, simply because terrorism is not related to a language you dumbass ! i swear to Allah you're one of those who wish they'd "convert" to their early days religion before the coming of arabs as one of your "lawyers" said on al Jazeera, he said : "we'd sack arabs out of Morocco as well as their religion (Islam that is) !!!", instead of thanking Allah for being an arabic-speaking person plus your mother tongue, you seem to take on islam and its language, let me tell you this Mr barbarian if you're still a moslem : Arabic is the language Allah would ask you with the judgment day ! moot bel faqsa !
your prayers are not accepted in any language but arabic, your name is arabic, tifinagh is an invented writing, only twaregs wrote it, can you tell me why were you quarrelling about how to write "bereber": in arabic alphabets, latin ones or just in tifina and if so how would they do it: from right to left or the opposite?
Whether you're arab or bereber we're in the same basket as long as we're still muslims, so lets not turn into another Hutu and tutsi because nobody will come out victorious !


this thread gives me a headache ! i won't reply

To shelby,

I end up the debate with you here a will be pleased to debate with you in private messages.
This web-site is pro-arabists and pro-makhzen, I' will be censored and even banned and you won't.

I believe in multicultural Morocco, not arab country nor a Berber country but just the Kingdom of Morocco. You militate for a uniform arab Morocco and the great arab nation (that never existed) and you dream of Eradication of Berbers.


I am a secular muslim and we do not have to be Arab to be good muslims (indonesia, Iran , Turkey). I differentiate between Islam and Islamism, arab and arbism. You mix everything in one single pot.

Believe me that no body over this planet loves nor islamists nor arabists. Bush, Sarkozy, Olmert are taking care of them.

@ Abdalghafor,

Quote
Abdalghafor
This is meant to mister Shelby only,

"Just show me a single arab country where democraty and human rights prevail? All arab countries are eitheir ruled by tyrans or Islamists. All arab countries combined lost 6-to-0 against a very tiny country called Israel

You believe that Tifinagh is the scripts of the stone age, well, that's your stand point, but let me return you the compliment, myself and my descent will never learn the Spagheties of Arabic, the language that is only good to teach Islamism and that fails when dealing with science, technology and computers and humanities. It's the language that shapes the minds of terrorists and leads directlly to unemployement, mediocrity and underdeveloppement.

Mr Abdelghafor, if I had not read your posts and saw how many times you repeated that you were a Moroccan Berber I would have thought that Daniel Pipes was your mentor, or your elder brother. For Having spent several year in Wash DC I know this racist language full of hatred by heart. Believe me Abdelghafor, the neo-cons will continue despising you even if adopt their ideology and scream that you are not an Arab. So keep on trying and see where you will get...

Good luck with your genial ideas, I am ending the discussion here.

@ Hicham,
Many thanks for taking the discussion to a higher level, though I doubt it will have any impact on our neo-con fellow Moroccan here.

Regards

OK you are portaraying me as a new-cons. Let's gow through a small mind gymnatics.

Who fought the french occupation in Morocco?

Neo-modern history have never highlighted any single moroccan arabe tribe (beni Hssen, Oulad Hriz, etc...) to have ever shot any single bullet agaisnt the French occupier. I understand thant most of arab tribes and the so called were Makhzenians.

It's King Moulay Abdelahfid who SIGNED the treaty of protectorate!!

Makhzenian tribes including arabe ones and Fassi fulfilled!

Who fought french occupation?

It's Abdelkrim of Rif whose army widtsood chemical weapons of Genral Petain and Franco of spain.
It's Moha uHammu Izyi (Zayani) of midlle Atlas who fought them fiercelly.
It's Assu Baslam of Ait atta tribes who destroyed Bournazel's army in Bougafer monutains with just militians throwings stones. Bournazel had a whole neighborhood (quarter) named up on in Casablanca and npt any single street have ever been baptized Assu Baslam.
It's Ali Tarmoune of Ait Merghad in Baddou mountains who fiercelly fought the french occuppier.
It's the uprising of Ait Baamran in anti-Atlas.
It's
it's...
It's Zaid Uhmad.....

The fassies just squated farms and factories that the occupiers left behind who claim the arabity and islam.

Figure out that those fassies whoe advocate arab and co. tooke care of sending their childs to french missions!!!

to end up whith masses of moroccan educated in the makhzenian system that exhibit sympathy to Ussam Bin Laden and the like

Hi all,

Abdalghafor,

plz stop it…. we have enough problems in the country need to be solved we don’t need more…I’m my self Chelha …believe me I’ve never felt any kind of discrimination or oppression from Arabs…in fact I feel that Berber are much more racist toward Arabs than the opposite I”ve experienced it in my own family…we are all Moroccan and that's should be enough....the country got long way out of underdevelopment…devising the country will be a regrettable error …the power of unity is one of the basic criteria for a successful society…..

If the country is experiencing troubles, misery, prostitution, shanty towns, analphabetism, unemployement and terrorism it is because of the corrupted arabo-islamist regime who took power in Morocco since the end of the protectorate. It has nothing to do with Berber Activism. The Amazigh Movement is totally pacific, secular (independent of any religion) and democratic.

Berbers claim their right of existing as Berbers with their language officially recognized, taught in schools and their culture promoted on media and television. Berbers are totally in their rights. Berbers are not against arabs, but Berbers want to recover their identity. Berbers are not a minority nor are immigrants. Morocco is their territory since the stone age.

Berber movment is not manpulated by any western country and you all are aware of Berbers to be the only ones to have fiercely fought the French occupier in Morocco during the thirties

He is fashist he who deny their ligitimate rights to Amazigh people and that's it.

salam

shireen, not at all, just trying to expose my ideas....

Abdelghafour, thank you .....

there is a lot of contradictions in what you said and it is diffcult to discuss any subject as you don't stick to one single subject, i can't reply to your thesis that only berbers fougt against french occupation because there is numerous counter examples and i simply don't want to get into this kind of
infertile debate ....

Also, it seems to me that you don"t read the arguments of the others and you keep repeating the same ideas... we have no arabo'islamist regime in morocco and fassi's are not arabs, at least not all.... as i said it's difficult to argue with you because you just give a multitude of facts - false or true - and what i can get from them is nothing but hatred and strong feelings. it's good to have commitment but unfortunately feelings sometimes prevent us from structring our ideas and this is bad from a rhetorical point of view...

anyway, if you say that you are pacific as a berber militant, try to show it on the way you adress people, i'm just giving you and advice

salam

Mister Hicham_B,

please give me a single Arab tribe who fought the french occupier!! Please, please, please, pease!!!!

Arab trive were all Makhzebians and fulfilled the treaty of occupation...

It's the traitor King Moulay Abdelahfid Al Alaoui who brought the French to occupy Morocco because he was about to surrender to Middle Atlas tribes besieging his Palace in Fes

The intolerants are arabists who dream of ERADICATION of Tamazight and Amazigh the true inhbitants of North Africa

Mr Abdelghafour,

I told you that what i think of this kind of debate ....

for expample , Ma'a el3aynaine who was defeated by the french in sidi bou Athmane...

but this lead us nowhere.......

Maal3anin of Western Sahara, What an example!!! le ridicule ne tue pas!!!!
The rediculous has never killed!!!

And Maal3in is a Berber tribe of Bani Tizroutine arabized under Banni Hillal invasion of southern Morocco

i told you you there's no need for being agressive...

Maybe you are talking about bani hassaan (a Ma'aqil tribe) because bani hilal tayed in the upper part of morocco ... and if his tribe was arabized it confims what i told you , a lot of berbers were arabized and a lot of arabs were berberized ( the multitde of berber zawiya's with chorfa descent .... )

anyway, just tell a sahraoui that mal3aynine is berber and you will see his reaction, they are more ethno-centric than amazighs...

good night

salam

Quote
Hicham_A
in the same way that a rifi despises an AGEL3I ( nador region) and will never consider him as rifi, it would be an inslut for him

Nonsens! and we consider suche nonsens just bul*** from a racist wanna be arab like you who repeat the same things as the arabo raciste makhzan who want to spread nonsens between rifian tribes! i think u are bad informed about th Rif area and her people!

guelaya is just one of the tribes of the Rif like other tribes. and what is the Nador region for you?? Nador region count many rifian tribes: Guelaya, kebdana, Ait said, Ait ourich, Temsaman, Ait buyehyi, Metalsa, Ait touzine and al of them are Rifian tribes (including the other rifian tribes in alhoceima region).

dont tell that to an Arifi (from Nador or Alhoceima of everywhere else), because its sounds stupid and jokers talk.

and for the ones who are saying taht moroccans are just a mix of arabes and berbers, i say this: stop joking youself!! maybe you are just a mix and youw want to ben an arab. but we are not and we never will be arabes because we are Imazighen and proud of our heritage! just back off you raciste arabes !!

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Viva mi Patria y mi Pueblo!