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Morocco # English board

منتدى المغرب و المغاربة حول العالم

July 3, 2007 by G. Atzmon

When I came over to Britain some thirteen years ago, I found a very tolerant place. I was amazed to see so many people of so many colours, not just living together in peace, but living in full harmony. At Essex University, the institute where I was doing my postgraduate studies, everyone was enthusiastic about post-colonialism. The Brits, so it seemed to me at the time, were repenting over their embarrassing colonial past. I was mildly impressed but not totally overwhelmed. At the end of the day, it isn’t that difficult to denounce your grandfather’s crimes.

I was amazed to see Turks and Cypriots running grocery shops side by side in Green Lane. My first roommate was a Palestinian M.A. student from Beit Sahour, it all felt natural. It didn’t take long before I fell in love with the town and decided to make it into my permanent home.

At the time, Britain was very different from the place I came from. In my homeland the human landscape was officially reduced into two types. In a manner of crude binary opposition there was always a clear division between the 'Good’ and the 'Bad’, the 'us’ and the 'them’, the 'West’ and the 'East’ or just the 'Jews’ and the 'Arabs’. In the place I came from, peace couldn’t even be seen on the horizon. But in the London of the 1990s, there was no such dichotomy. Painfully enough, this has changed. On a daily basis our media outlets repeat the idiotic question: "Why do they hate us so much?" By now it is rather clear, the binary opposition between 'us’ and 'them’ has made it into an integral part of the British discourse as well.

When I moved over in the early 1990s, British politics was very boring. John Major was in power. But then, not before long, a young, dynamic, visionary politician removed him from office. This politician is a man who has managed in just ten years to demolish one of the most harmonious societies in the West. Tony Blair, the great new Labour promise, had been running the country for a decade; he managed to drag this country into every possible conflict, and to escalate minor conflict to crisis levels. He has managed to lie repeatedly to his people, his parliament and his cabinet, he has launched an illegal war that cost over 700,000 innocent civilian lives. He obviously failed to see the impact those wars may have on his multi-ethnic society at home.

Blair has just left the PM office, thank God for that, however, this country is now on the brink of moral collapse. Its civil rights system is under severe threat. Politicians of all parties are calling for tougher detention laws. The possibility of mass deportation of new immigrants doesn’t look like a remote nightmare. Yet, most worrying is the role of the 'free’ media in this country. The leading papers and TV are succumbing quite willingly to the official Government line of thinking. It’s something that reminds me too much of the recruited media in my doomed homeland, the place I left thirteen years ago.

I find myself wondering, how dare the media ask 'why do they hate us?’ Don’t they know the answer? Don’t we know the answer? Weren’t we the ones who demolished Iraq? Wasn’t it our PM, Tony Blair, who gave a green light to the Israelis to flatten Lebanon? Wasn’t it Tony Blair’s government who dismissed the democratically elected Hamas in Palestine? Wasn’t it Blair who allowed the Israelis to starve Gaza?

For those who still fail to realise, to kill is rather simple, to turn towns into piles of rubble isn’t that complicated either. Yet, to raise a child may take a few years, to build a city takes hundreds of years and to establish harmony between human beings takes thousand of years. We should stop lying to others and to ourselves. We know perfectly well why they hate us, they have some good reasons, as things stand momentarily, we are the ones who are killing them en mass. It is us who demolish their towns and kill their kids.

Thus, rather than raising the pathetic question, 'why do they hate us?’ we’d better evade our self-righteous mode, and ask ourselves, 'why do we hate them so much?’ or even, 'why do we hate so much?’ in general.

To bring peace to London, Glasgow, Britain and the West is to look in the mirror, to look into our severe and devastating wrongdoings, to repair the damage made by Blair, Bush and company, to revise the dream of ecumenical Western society. It is possible. It is within our capacity. We have been just there not that long ago. I remember it very well, it was only thirteen years ago, I felt it when I landed in Britain.

Amen!

I don't think anybody would dare to post a comment to such an eloquent pleading ...

Riffman

We all reminber the London & Britain you talking about but we must admit we are doing our share to let 1 person change all what we all had (thats us & them ) we are all losers now & until we take action we can only cry the past & we are good at it !

It will be of interest to read this too, in oirder to boader thinking about really what is going on in the mind of the Europeans...

Beware of a religion without irony.
BY ROGER SCRUTON

The term "Islamofascism" was introduced by the French writer Maxine Rodinson (1915-2004) to describe the Iranian Revolution of 1978. Rodinson was a Marxist, who described as "fascist" any movement of which he disapproved. …. It is only now that people on the left can acknowledge that they are just as much a target as the rest of us, in a war that has global chaos as its goal. ……………..In the presence of Islam, we all feel, you have to tread carefully, as though humoring a dangerous animal. The Koran must never be questioned; Islam must be described as a religion of peace--isn't that the meaning of the word?--and jokes about the prophet are an absolute no-no. If religion comes up in conversation, best to slip quietly away ….. And in Europe this pussyfooting is now being transcribed into law, with "Islamophobia" already a crime in Belgium and movements across the continent to censor everything at which a Muslim might take offence, including articles like this one.
The majority of European Muslims do not approve of terrorism. But there are majorities and majorities. According to a recent poll, a full quarter of British Muslims believe that the bombs of last summer in London were a legitimate response to the "war on terror." Public pronouncements from Muslim leaders treat Islamist terrorism as a lamentable but understandable response to the West's misguided policies. And the blood-curdling utterances of the Wahhabite clergy, when occasionally reported in the press, sit uneasily with the idea of a "religion of peace." All this leads to a certain skepticism among ordinary people, whose "racist" or "xenophobic" prejudices are denounced by the media as the real cause of Muslim disaffection.
Now of course it is wrong to give gratuitous offence to people of other faiths; it is right to respect people's beliefs, when these beliefs pose no threat to civil order; and we should extend toward resident Muslims all the toleration and neighborly goodwill that we hope to receive from them. But recent events have caused people to wonder exactly where Muslims stand in such matters. Although Islam is derived from the same root as salaam, it does not mean peace but submission. And although the Koran tells us that there shall be no compulsion in matters of religion, it does not overflow with kindness toward those who refuse to submit to God's will. The best they can hope for is to be protected by a treaty (dhimmah), and the privileges of the dhimmi are purchased by onerous taxation and humiliating rites of subservience. …... And the anger with which public Muslims greet any attempt to challenge, to ridicule or to marginalize their faith is every bit as ferocious as that which animated the murderer of Theo Van Gogh. Ordinary Christians, who suffer a daily diet of ridicule and skepticism, cannot help feeling that Muslims protest too much, and that the wounds, which they ostentatiously display to the world, are largely self-inflicted.
To recognize such facts is not to give up hope for a tolerant Islam. But there is a matter that needs to be clarified. Christians and Jews are heirs to a long tradition of secular government, which began under the Roman Empire and was renewed at the Enlightenment: Human societies should be governed by human laws, and these laws must take precedence over religious edicts. The primary duty of citizens is to obey the state; what they do with their souls is a matter between themselves and God, and all religions must bow down to the sovereign authority if they are to exist within its jurisdiction. ………….The Egyptian writer and leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sayyid Qutb, went so far as to denounce all secular law as blasphemy. Mortals who make laws for their own government, he argued, usurp a power which is God's alone. And although few Muslim leaders will publicly endorse Qutb's argument, few will publicly condemn it either. What to us is a proof of Qutb's fanaticism and egomania is, for many Muslims, a proof of his piety.
……. It was irony that led Christ to declare that his "kingdom is not of this world," not to be achieved through politics. Such irony is a long way from the humorless incantations of the Koran. Yet it is from a posture of irony that every real negotiation, every offer of peace, every acceptance of the other, begins. The way forward, it seems to me, is to encourage the re-emergence of an ironical Islam, of the kind you find in the philosophy of Averroës, in Persian poetry and in "The Thousand and One Nights." We should also encourage those ethnic and religious jokes which did so much to defuse tension in the days before political correctness. And maybe, one day, the rigid face of some puritanical mullah will crack open in a hesitant smile, and negotiations can at last begin.

Excellent article Murakuch. Having said that, I'll follow the author's advice and "slip quietly away"

You're right Chelhman, otherwise Allah knows what you will be called here

I visite a lot of forums looking for discussions about Islam. And believe me. Some "muslims" are really ignorants. If they don't know an answer they start insulting people or just answering: "That's the way allah wants it..." Even insulting other religions.

I'm following the advice of chelhman...

*slipped quietly*

Hi all,


moonwalker, Shireen, chelhman,

real cowards we have here ........

lol Ilhem2...

I think that it's important to define some things first...

"why do they hate us so much?"

this simple sentence deserves a book to define it. unless we fear accuracy. we cant be 100% accurate, but let's try to show how hard it can be to define the concepts in this question.

who is "they"?
what is "hate"?
what do we mean by "so much"?

is "they" the Arabs? the Muslims? the extremist Muslims? the moderate? the poor people? the people coming from the immigration in the UK?... and more...

"hate"... this also needs to be defined. there is many kinds of hate.
do they hate their democracy? do they hate their lack of moral values? do they hate the economic system? the politic groups ruling the country? do they hate the people of these countries? do they hate the media?
anyway, who is hated exactly?

and then the "so much"... so much to what? to terrorism? to protests? to voting for the Hamas? ...

it's a very complex question.
it will take full books and tons of history books to explain.

i personnaly think that it's starting with the colonization... then Israel.
all the answer is in the colonial era.

and i also think that the hate is aimed toward the big minds of the state.
i have many friends in the UK, and they are awesome people.
but i hate the UK as a nation...

and i hate the military intervention. but it doesnt mean that i hate their soldiers. most of them are victims of the system too.

anyway...

Its very simpel actually. The west speciely the US needs an enemy to justify the huge military budgets. They will always have enemies if not natural ones then they will invent new ones. Its not about some radicals that hates the west its about the west that needs an enemy.
Yes one could argue that we have been occupied and therefor we have a right to hate them. But why bother, look forward instead, can we benefit from coorporation and buisness with them?
than lets stick to that like Asia have done. Reject their cultural influence a heritage from the occupation and maintaine the good things the west have brought to the world, like techonolgy. Of course it requires hard work first specialy from the elite, but they don't like to work hard, at least not for the society. The arab elite are lazy I have been traveling as an Engineer and have had sales meeting and hunreds of contacts with arabic Imort companies. They loose interest as soon as they realise how much preparation work it requires from their side to have a buisness up an runing when they have bought on of our complex machines. We havn't yet sold one single machine to any Arabic company, even though they could make lots of money if they used our machines in the oil industry. Instead we sell them to companies from Asia or the West who starts up new companies in the Arabic contries. The Arabs had the money and an oportunity to make money with our Machines, but htey didn't because they were too lazy.
Another example is when i worked in a company that manufactured molding machines, we had an Egyptian company that bougt molding sand from a Scandinavian company, yes the Scandinavian company sold sand to Egypt, because the Egyptians were to lazy to refine their own sand so the imported it instead.
I have other moroccan friends who also works with International sale or as Field Engineers and they tell the same stories.
Its a fact Arabs are lazy, thats the root of all problems. They look at the West and see the differences and instead of blaming their own greed and lazyness they blame the West, because it is easy to blame others. Just listen to all the conspiracy theories. WAKE UP, so what if the west has supressed your ancestors, that isn't an excuse.
The Asian countries have also been supressed, but they stood up and worked hard and look where they are now!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2007 01:06 by Kutchia.

Kutchia, i get your point.

but dont you think that the colonial era isnt over? we are still living under a colonial regime.

just look how Morroco is copying everything the French are doing... they vote a law, we try to do the same.

and the war with the Polisario in the south. isnt the polisario the gift of Spain?

the answer isnt in the elite, but in the people... we need no elite. it's up to the people to wake up.

Quote
Kutchia
Its very simpel actually. The west speciely the US needs an enemy to justify the huge military budgets. They will always have enemies if not natural ones then they will invent new ones. Its not about some radicals that hates the west its about the west that needs an enemy....

I don’t think that an enemy was needed…if you got people exploding building in you county killing more than 3000 people and you don’t consider them as an enemy I don’t know what are they?!……

For the rest I agree with you…I just wanna add to the lazy the proud…Arabic people are toooo proud of everything and nothig…….

Hi Kutchia,

You're right about the laziness thing, here's a clip from the horse's mouth, someone that can't exactly be qualified as islamophobic, and welcome among us by the way :

[switch3.castup.net]
(opens better with Windows Media Player)

Quote
chelhman
Hi Kutchia,

You're right about the laziness thing, here's a clip from the horse's mouth, someone that can't exactly be qualified as islamophobic, and welcome among us by the way :

[switch3.castup.net]
(opens better with Windows Media Player)

It’s true what he said...I just didn’t like the example of perfectionism of killing and the Zionist as a counter-example …he could bring a less provocative example because even in Israel there are people who are not Zionists …but this is an other story…..anyway great speech from a men of religion….

Quote
chelhman
Hi Kutchia,

You're right about the laziness thing, here's a clip from the horse's mouth, someone that can't exactly be qualified as islamophobic, and welcome among us by the way :

[switch3.castup.net]
(opens better with Windows Media Player)

Thanks for the clip Chelhman and for the welcome too. Well I could add more to the speech he gave, like i.e. Denmark a nation of 5 million ppl applayes for more patents a year than all arabic nations combined do in 10 years. I can go on an on but I think most people get the point now. Our Mullahs are also getting the point now thats a good start. I think that when the Arabs have realised that they have been blaming other people for their poverty for another 100 years they will start figure out that they might find a solution if they blame them self and actually do something about it. One can blame the government and other countries for suporting the arab regimes, but in the end it's the people who can make an end to that if they truely wanted too and wasn't too lazy, just like Asia and the South American contries have done. But the Arab nations are not ready yet at least not the generations living today.
It's not only the arabs living in arab countries the lazynes is also among arabs living abroad all though not as much. Just open an read a random european newspaper and you will find plenty examples of arabs that have done this and that. Many of them are too lazy to work hard to get a good education and work even harder to get a job, instead they complain about how much rasicm there are against them and that they can't get jobs. That is not true, yes there is racism but if one worked hard enough the reward will also be there. Instead they take the easy way out and that is to blame others and steal or sell drugs. I know its not the majority of arabs living abroad, but it's is a high percent.

Quote
Ilhem2

I don’t think that an enemy was needed…if you got people exploding building in you county killing more than 3000 people and you don’t consider them as an enemy I don’t know what are they?!……

For the rest I agree with you…I just wanna add to the lazy the proud…Arabic people are toooo proud of everything and nothig…….

They made the islamic extrimist their enemies long before that. Besides the 9/11 dosn't justify a war, as it wasn't a nation the was behind the atack but a individual or a group of criminal master minds. You could take them out in other ways than a regular war. CIA have done that many times before why couldn't they have done it again? I tell you way, because America needs an enemy. China will be next on the list you just wait an see, because America can,'t live with China taking its place as worlds nummber one Economic superpower which China will become with its current econimc growth. No super power nation have ever maintained its status with out also at the same time is an econimic super power. When a country looses its status as an economic super power it also looses its status as a military super power.

Hi,

Quote
Kutchia
They made the islamic extrimist their enemies long before that. Besides the 9/11 dosn't justify a war, as it wasn't a nation the was behind the atack but a individual or a group of criminal master minds. You could take them out in other ways than a regular war. CIA have done that many times before why couldn't they have done it again? I tell you way, because America needs an enemy. China will be next on the list you just wait an see, because America can,'t live with China taking its place as worlds nummber one Economic superpower which China will become with its current econimc growth. No super power nation have ever maintained its status with out also at the same time is an econimic super power. When a country looses its status as an economic super power it also looses its status as a military super power.

Kuchia,

are you not mixing between competitor or rival and an enemy?…may be the USA needs a rival …but an enemy I’m not sure!…then no one looks for an enemy …that will be sadistic...I don’t see any problem in competing with others....this is even constructive.....by the way I’m not defending the USA...I “m just not convinced by the idea of looking for an enemy...this idea is widely spread in the world...

Quote
Ilhem2
Hi,



Kuchia,

are you not mixing between competitor or rival and an enemy?…may be the USA needs a rival …but an enemy I’m not sure!…then no one looks for an enemy …that will be sadistic...I don’t see any problem in competing with others....this is even constructive.....by the way I’m not defending the USA...I “m just not convinced by the idea of looking for an enemy...this idea is widely spread in the world...

Yes Ilhem it is sadistic, bombing civilians in Iraq an Afganistan is also. The military industry, the Navy Air force and Navy don't give a damn. the are interested in maintaning the huge military budgets and those can only be justified if America have a visible enemy. So Sadistic or not thats not the point.
The problem with China is that having a rival is a good thing for people who can benifit from that (thats african countries like Negiria, who can sell there oil for more money to China) But for America it isn't a good thing, they have to fight harder for the cheap oil. In the end China can become such a big rival that America have to fight them or else they will loose their influence in the world and America will not let that happen. Al Qida an other lunatics are just temporarily enemies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2007 05:17 by Kutchia.