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منتدى المغرب و المغاربة حول العالم

I watched Antenne2 news tonight, and I was interested by the story of Robert Redeker, the writer who wrote things about Islam and the prophet Mohammed, PBUH, and who now is living in hiding because of threats to his life. I then decided, here’s another one where we, Muslims and Islam are going to loose, because in my view, each time Muslims threaten anyone who writes or says something about Islam they don’t like with death, they automatically loose; we all automatically loose, be it the Pope, Salman Rushdie, Redeker and/or others. To threaten them is to give them a microphone, a stage on the international forums, thus, legitimacy and credence.
After I saw the story on the news, I went and looked him up to read some of his writing, I was chocked by what he wrote about the prophet, I felt insulted by the way he described Islam and the holy Quran, but isn’t there a better way to reply to people like him, other than threats on his life and his family’s life? Aren’t there Muslim scholars who can debate this guy and make him look like the fool he really is? And don’t tell me the likes of the late Ahmed Deedat, allah yerhamo, wouldn’t make this guy run and hide in his mommy’s arms. Only it looks like we’re not producing people educated enough who can take steps like the ones Deedat took. We have to admit; there are no Deedats amongst us anymore, just like there are no more Khawarizmis, Farabis and Ibn Sinaas. Our new “scholars” seem to give their voices and rights to bunch of criminals who threaten writers and shmucks who question anything about Islam, and that is having dire consequences on our peaceful religion.
If a jerk like this one, and I call him that because he used pretty bad and inaccurate language in his writing, writes an article on the Figaro and insult Islam, Muslims should rent three pages of that magazine, and the front page of all French magazines to prove he’s wrong and Hmar; (Donkey just didn’t give me satisfaction) we have the money to do that.
Every time someone writes something not good or not true about Islam and we threaten his or her life, we loose little of our lives, too, every time we choose violence we shrink little and with us the greatness and goodness of Islam.
Here’s a translation of the article in question if you havn't read it, I have to tell you that it’s pretty bad and not easy for a Muslim to read without standing and Stomping on the floor, It could make you angry, but please don’t stand on the wrong side of the debate, oh, and be nice to me, too, lol
Salam,
Almot
[www.westernresistance.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2006 04:33 by Almot.

Hi Almot,

You've said it eloquently, everytime we threaten someone for voicing an opinion, we lose.
I've read the piece of Redecker a while ago, this thing has been gathering momentum for a while now in Europe, he's a nobody, an obscure teacher in a obscure town in the middle of nowhere.

As a kid I remember, my father and his friends spending entire evenings debating over everything and anything, al mouna9acha.
We're good at it, it's a tradition across the muslim world, you give us a senya and atay and we can go on for hours.
Nothing was off limits.
Yet some idiotic teacher spews his venom on the Book and instead of opposing our brains to his, we threaten like bullies.
Well...I say "we" but I don't recognize myself in those people.

Freedom of expression should not just be a punch line for politicians, it's very real, Redecker might make our blood boil when we read him, but he actually boosts my reasoning to be able to answer him and anyone like him.

I can understand the reaction of an illiterate muslim, he can't help it, he feels offended and he reacts with his guts but what's the excuse of some of us in Europe and in North America ?

In my opinion Redecker has a right to voice his view, we have theologians who can deconstruct his reasoning, just as I thought that the danish newspaper was out of line when they published those cartoons, but my reaction was "let's file a lawsuit", not "let's burn tires and destroy embassies".

Some muslims never miss an opportunity to make fools of ourselves. Before we can move on and grow, we should be the first to condemn them, it's because we're not doing that, that others are doing it for us, and when they do, we cringe because nobody likes to be lectured.

You're right Almot, we lose, we've lost again on this one, because on this side of the Atlantic, I don't see "ours" condemning those who threatened that "nobody", but as usual they're on the defensive and whining about how once again their faith was desecrated.
As muslims, we shouldn't fear debates, we're good at it, it's in our culture, we should say to Redecker and to others like him :
"Bring it on, to your ignorance, we'll oppose our knowledge."
And to those who threatened him :

"you're not us, you do not speak for us."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2006 04:21 by chelhman.

lot of sense..

I wish all muslims could have this "brain" behaviour...

still have a lot to do before we reach that...

let's hope...

thanks guys for your thoughts, I would be more than happy to read the same message in "actualites internationales", but too lazy to translate..

---

The exaltation of violence; a merciless war chief, plunderer, slaughterer of Jews and a polygamist, such is the man revealed through the Koran.

In fact, the Catholic church is not above reproach. Its history is strewn with dark pages, for which it has made repentance. The Inquisition, the hounding of witches, the execution of the philosophers Bruno and Vanini, those wrong-thinking Epicureans, even well into the 18th century the (execution of the) knight of La Barre for impiety, do not plead in the church's favor. But what differentiates Christianity from Islam is apparent: it is always possible to bring forth the evangelical values, the mild personage of Jesus against the deviations of the Church.

None of the faults of the Church have their roots in the Gospel. Jesus is non-violent. Turning back to Jesus is turning against the excesses of the ecclesiastic institution. Turning to Mahomet, by contradiction, reinforces hate and violence. Jesus is a master of love, Mahomet is a master of hatred.

---

I ‘m sure these bolded word that got your attention.
Like I said in the other post take of the mask, chelhman=almot, most people by now should know what is you true agenda here,

Thanks Baba for whatever it is that you mean by chelhman=almot, because I honestly don’t get it, may be I'm a bit slow. I’m, however, open to any explanation you may have. I just ask that you keep it DEBATE and not turn it into Souk Okkad, where we may start throwing rocks and loose respect for each other.
Peace,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2006 01:53 by Almot.

Almot
Don’t worry about what the equation is all about.
Who are theses Muslims that threatened the auteur?Any head of a state , or Islamic scholars?

If I can remember, there were no heads of states or Islamic scholars amongst the ones who blew up hotels and cafes in Casablanca either.

Dear Almot,
We have to look at ourselfs, at our history at our our home made problems.Do some brains storming and try to fix things. There are not many other solutions to make the others respect us. Since we are not able to create the conditions that our people live in dignity and learn to work hard toward a self-organized society. We can only balme ourselfs and not this pseudo philosopher who allow himself to write in Le Figaro about Islam and about us.
I just read a much harder book by a german about muslims and arabs. Basically, he is saying that all this violence and hate are the results of frustration and inabilty to compete with the west.
He metion one point where where in a period of 300 years, Coran was the only book recommended for reading.
....

You are absolutely right Krim, and look what they made of this Looser, a celebrity! A yesterday no body, comes and says something about Islam and we decorate him just like we decorated many others instead of showing the world that they are just wrong.
Also, to some degree, I agree with the notion in the book you mentioned, that all this violence and hate are the results of frustration and inability to compete with the west. We have to admit that we not only can’t compete, but we are totally out of the competition right now.
The train of civilization and modernization had passed us, and we are left so faraway behind we couldn’t catch it if we all turn into Aouitas today.
Even though I’m against going back and reminiscing about yesterday, I say thank God for history, for in it, Muslim achievements are engraved in gold letters, thank God for Al Andalus, where Muslims even today can walk with their heads high and where the west can see that we had brains once up on a time, they're just been hijacked right now. But unless we sit down in real session of self criticism, unless we wake up and smell the coffee, it’s not the west who is going to destroy whatever remains of us, but the Psychopaths, the cancer that is spreading ever so fast in our societies today. Allah Yester, .........
Good day to you my friend,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2006 09:55 by Almot.

Quote
Krim
Dear Almot,
We have to look at ourselfs, at our history at our our home made problems.Do some brains storming and try to fix things. There are not many other solutions to make the others respect us. Since we are not able to create the conditions that our people live in dignity and learn to work hard toward a self-organized society. We can only balme ourselfs and not this pseudo philosopher who allow himself to write in Le Figaro about Islam and about us.
I just read a much harder book by a german about muslims and arabs. Basically, he is saying that all this violence and hate are the results of frustration and inabilty to compete with the west.
He metion one point where where in a period of 300 years, Coran was the only book recommended for reading.
....

Hi Krim,

i absolutely agree with you and the writer you’re talking about….sadly our people don’t want to get it!!!!!!….they think that’s a religion matter….they claim that Christians fear the Islam….in fact no one cares ….the western is more worried about the Chinese invasion and the lack of oil resources in the future…….when our people will wake up ??……

---

Quote
Almot
If I can remember, there were no heads of states or Islamic scholars amongst the ones who blew up hotels and cafes in Casablanca either.

---

you didn't get it . what I’m getting at is the media is to blame, threat every day to head of state and fames people but guess what the media ignore it , but some body like this idiot write bad stuff about islam , and even if some one in strait give him a finger, or hateful look the media will be all over it,
have heard about the Harvard professor that wrote a book about how usa look for isreal interest even if it mean it will heart it interest, and what happened to him?
Probably not, because the media will not talk about it.

baba123,

If you're talking about the Mersheimer-Walt thesis and another book Mersheimer wrote, it got plenty of attention in the media and it sparked a few interesting debates, I've posted a link to one of them a few days ago.

chelhman


To be honest with you I don’t remember it was like lightning just a bleep in the media “NPR” for couple seconds and gone, I can’t remember the book or the author name.
I know for fact he couldn’t find any publisher. If he was talking about our religion he will be awarded the noble prize and granted a visit to Buckingham palace and white house.
did the majore network talked about it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2006 01:37 by baba123.

salam alaykum


listen guys if you really bear any love for Islam and our beloved prophet Mohammed PBUH do something ,like debate this frenchy jerk .but coming her for blabla and blaming this and that u r just spreading and promoting his ideas for free .

Sarah 70
This forum is for discussing issues and learn from each others. This suppose that anyone can be wrong in his thinking. So this forum is open for any idea or to any what you call blablablabla. Second you do have no idea what each of us is doing in his or her daily life.
Do something : can you explain please

salam alaykum


krim

Quote
Do something : can you explain please

i gave u ex debating him .
if u can't do any ignoring him is fair enough.and would be adaafou al eman (oups did i just preach here)

Salma 2 U All;
No, Freedom of Speech Should Not Be Limited then you destroy part of the Speech the Word Freedom won't be Right then in the expression, whoever is asking for that is the same old people not wanting the freedom of speech to exist in the first place and that's only my humble opinion, you do not have to agree to it nor do I have to change it to please you or them, right ???

Baba123,
When I said:
If I can remember, there were no heads of states or Islamic scholars amongst the ones who blew up hotels and cafes in Casablanca either, I was hoping that you’d understand I was answering you in the same mocking and sarcastic way you put the question to me. My hope went in vain, because your reply opening with (you didn’t get it) just showed me how much YOU didn’t get it, and that you missed it by more than a yard. But that’s another story and we are suppose to be talking about freedom of speech, I guess.

Quote
Almot
Baba123,

---

When I said:
If I can remember, there were no heads of states or Islamic scholars amongst the ones who blew up hotels and cafes in Casablanca either, I was hoping that you’d understand I was answering you in the same mocking and sarcastic way you put the question to me. My hope went in vain, because your reply opening with (you didn’t get it) just showed me how much YOU didn’t get it, and that you missed it by more than a yard. But that’s another story and we are suppose to be talking about freedom of speech, I guess.

---

I guess I see couple people here it could be the same :-). Getting irritated with me and start personal attacks to see if I loose my cool, guess what “9ashabty ouas3a” ara ma3andak.
Back to the subject
what I’m getting at is the media is to blame, threats happened every day to the head of state and famous people but guess what, the media ignore it , but if some body like this idiot write bad stuff about islam , and some one in strait give him a finger, or hateful look the media will be all over it, then he/she will be awarded the noble prize and granted a visit to Buckingham palace and white house



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2006 01:14 by baba123.

I can only guess you are convinced, which I will make me glad.

HI All;

The late Najib Mahfood was the first notable -back when Salman Rushdi wrote his breakthrough to fame book- to call for a response in Kind: writing a book or books in today's terms and style instead of threats to the Author!...So, yes, responding to this nobody would make him what he's looking for, but it would also redicule his cheap shot at the Prophet's life...

To link this to the questions at hand, Freedom is a relative term and it can not be limited because stupidity has no limits!
If the Koran was some 300 years ago the only recomeded or must read book,...well there's no shame in that, And I wish it is the case these days, just like the Bible..., it must be read and not only by Muslims...But how are we reading these books, Sacred books? AND For what purpose? These are some valid questions to be answered!

ON a refreshing side, These days, there are more Western scholars/ Students majoring or devoting their time to an objective reading of the Sira a Nabawiyya and the Koran than arab/Muslim ones...it's a nice shift and a necessary one, we, Arabs, MUslims, "think" we know the Christians and the Jews...but we only rely on a blind inherited version of who they are/were and They, too, are victims of the same "teachings". We should relearn about ourselves and our Cousins/ half brothers!!!

The Redeker character is just an opportunist, but he can wake so many of us, who know nothing about Islam but its name! Would be great if they "hit" the Libraries and the database first to know for fact, historical ones, ok, what He is really attacking and How and What they should say!

I'm not preaching here, I have my little corner where I can do that !...But I see in this is a call for us to read or rather re-read our history, all of it, I finally started Re-visiting all the teachings I had few years ago, you never know what might transpire and what we might have misunderstood!

...SO I Say, let them write and bash and insult, we're behind and that's a fact, but We NEED TO KNOW OUR FACTS FIRST before responding IN KIND: Write Articles and Books if need be, just like Almot and Mahfood suggested.

Good day!
Yani

Hello & Salam;
Outch Such A Serious Reply Oh! My God Almighty Allah, cheese burder dudez

Hello & Salam;
Very true, the cowards are always united against islam & muslims since they control the media they are enjoying it big time, well Allah Shall defeat them as He Defeated Many Stronger Groups/Nations,.. before all their beautiful stories are in the Noble Qur'aan, So Do not Worry Allah Might Postpone His Punishment But Never Forgets Why cause Allah is Just and Those Cowards Are Not & Never Will Be, So Alhamdo-Allah, We Shall See Allah Destroy them All & Always Vicory to The Truth & 1 of Allah's Names is The True "Al-Haq" Subhanaho-Wa-Ta3ala